The Center for Hellenic Studies is hosting an
on-line open house with Nancy Felson, Laura Slatkin, and Maša Ćulumovićb
discussing “Exchanges
in the Odyssey‘s Underworld,”. Here’s my comments on the
Odyssean pre-work.
(xi. 146-49). “Whomever of the dead ...you let get near the
blood will speak to you infallibly,” We discussed this with Casey Due last
week; this is the poet Odysseus claiming that his song is true and all others a
lie. Of course Odysseus is a notorious and compulsive liar. This is
Homer reporting what that liar Odysseus said, not Homer speaking. As Kevin
McGrath pointed out about 80% of the Odyssey is told by Odysseus rather
than Homer.
x.538–40 everything said
by Tiresias, Circe already knows making the trip to Hades unnecessary or an
invention.
xi.56–59 Active concern
for his men? That’s a first
xi.72–80. Oh that’s why O
is expressing pity for Elpenor; he doesn’t want to suffer the spirits
wrath when returning to Circe’s island. This is also the famous
foreshadowing of the ritual will end Odysseys adventures. Is this a
representative of a real tradition of oars being grave marks for sailors?
I have seen sculpture representing the grave marker of a soldier
consisting of boots, gun and helmet. And in Prince Valiant comic strip, I
recall a scene where at prayer time in lieu of a cross they shoved a sword in
the ground. The result is rather grave stone looking
xi.180–203 the
conversation between mother and son as never felt true to me.
xi.488–503 “Don't console me about death, brilliant
Odysseus. I'd rather be a hired farm-hand, slaving for another, for a landless
man who hasn't much substance, than rule all the dead who've perished.”
Well of course that liar Odysseus in his own epic would claim that this is what
Achilles told him
xi.542–64 I feel sorry for Ajax
xxiv.19–49. Pretty
flattering to Achilles, compared to his last discussion but of course it is now
Homer speaking.
What a great conversation with Nancy Felson, Laura Slatkin, and Maša Ćulumović about Odyssesian conversations in the Underworld. What a rich and fast-paced conversation. So many insights and some much knowledge shared on the topic.
The thought that really struck me is that the shades are stuck temporally and emotionally where they were when they left the upper world. Ajax was man at Odysseus at his moment of death and still is (or just not interested in dealing with him anymore.) Odysseus mom pined away for her departed son, so rather than be joyous, she is still pining. She reports that all is well for his wife and son, because they were fine when she left the upper world.
What a great conversation with Nancy Felson, Laura Slatkin, and Maša Ćulumović about Odyssesian conversations in the Underworld. What a rich and fast-paced conversation. So many insights and some much knowledge shared on the topic.
The thought that really struck me is that the shades are stuck temporally and emotionally where they were when they left the upper world. Ajax was man at Odysseus at his moment of death and still is (or just not interested in dealing with him anymore.) Odysseus mom pined away for her departed son, so rather than be joyous, she is still pining. She reports that all is well for his wife and son, because they were fine when she left the upper world.
Bill,
ReplyDelete"...everything said by Tiresias, Circe already knows making the trip to Hades unnecessary or an invention."
I have a feeling that wanting information was just an excuse and the descent to Underworld had another function - but I cannot say what.
"I'd rather be a hired farm-hand, slaving for another, for a landless man who hasn't much substance, than rule all the dead who've perished."
I suppose "slaving" is a wrong translation. About the entire statement, I think that Achilles wouldn't want to admit this, but he was thinking it even back in the Iliad. If he really believed that life was nothing compared to kleos, then why was he so devastated when his best friend traded life for kleos?
Maya,
ReplyDeleteOdysseus needed a story about sailing into the Underworld (Who does that? Both Heracles and Dionysus had to climb down into Hades.) Anyway he made up the story so he could say he returned from the dead. That bumps up his chance of cult status and makes for a great story if he is looking to get gifts from his Phaeanican audience.
"Slaving" is used because the translator thought it would be worse if he was a slave. But that is not true back then. I learned this during a sermon on the Prodigal Son. When the three year drought comes and there is no food to be found, you still have to feed your slaves and animals. They are an investment. The hired guy you fire and send away to his doom.
As to Achilles weeping over the death of the hero Patroclus; we don't weep hysterical because someone died, after all, "Men die." We weep because of own personal lose, we are so shallow.
Wasn't Odysseus surprised to see Achilles there, some how expecting a better resting place for him? In fact of course, Achilles' divine half was partying up with his buddies on one of the Isles of the Blest (The Isle of Leuce in the Black Sea.) And he slept with Helene every night!)
Bill