“Bad manners makes the Gods angry and your hair falls out. “. Maya M
"When I happen to agree with Graves, I search where I am mistaken :-) Maya M
“ no man who has unsparingly thrown himself into political-life [politeiā] trusting in the loyalty of the democracy [tà tou dēmou] has ever met with a beautiful death. “(Pausanias 1.8.3)
"When I happen to agree with Graves, I search where I am mistaken :-) Maya M
“ no man who has unsparingly thrown himself into political-life [politeiā] trusting in the loyalty of the democracy [tà tou dēmou] has ever met with a beautiful death. “(Pausanias 1.8.3)
D'Artagnan: [reciting from memory the letter Richelieu wrote giving Milady de Winter permission to kill Buckingham, d'Artagnan and Constance, as Richelieu reads the actual note which D'Artagnan has handed him] "By my order and for the good of the state, the bearer has done what has been done."
Cardinal Richelieu: Hm. One should be careful what one writes...
“Unfixable force of chaos” Lethal Weapon
“god-like Homer” Aristophanes Frogs 1032
“You exhort me in vain as if you were talking to th ewaves.” Prometheus in Prometheus
"In later Greek art the figure moving to the right or auspicious side is usually the winner” Jenifer Neils
"The lame Hephaestus is seldom depicted with a deformed foot; only his riding of the mule alludes to his disability “ Neils
“Palm (trees) might serve to underscore a distant exotic place.” Cohen
“As Lincoln reluctantly admits scholarship to be itself a form of myth” Cohen
Bill,
ReplyDeleteIt was another participant, Sophie, who pointed out the falling of hair. The discussion was about Thersites. Personally, I symphatize with him and am not sure about Homer's attitude to him.
Maya,
ReplyDeleteI always thought Thersites was a little overdrawn. Clearly Homer’s example of inappropriate behavior (unheroic) . From time to time he is the darhling of Socialists and Unions in this country. But he was no commoner, rather a prince and cousin to Diomedes
Bill
Bill,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking truth to power, what Thersites does, is regarded by many as heroic, at least in modern times. Indeed, Thersites cries after Odysseus beats him. But I do not remember other heroes in the Iliad showing great endurance of pain. The Olympian Ares cried far louder over a minor injury.
Have you links to US leftist texts in support of Thersites? He was a darling also of Soviet scholars, and of the Bulgarian translators of the Iliad. (Though the latter added the nuance that, however justified Thersites' speech is, a military commander could not tolerate it.)
We know from other sources that Thersites was a prince, but if we had only the Iliad, we'd consider him a commoner. How do you think, why did Homer portray him so? Is there sarcasm in the praise to Odysseus that his beating of Thersites was his most glorious feat?
Maya,
ReplyDeleteWhen I said from time to time he was the darling... i could have said that last time I researched ThersitesI found like three very flattering articles penned for socialist/union audiences. Nothing major and I didn’t document them. Sorry.
Maybe Thersites was portrayed (drawn) that way because in oral storytelling you need more obvious clues for the listeners. In writing you can be more subtle?
Also, I just read (Did I post it?) that ancient Greek iconography required beastly parts on a god or human to indicate their beastly nature. Hence the horse parts on centaurs indicate there drunkness and the goatish parts the satyrs’ lust. So to demonstrate Thersites less than ideal nature Homer describes him as less than an idea human being
Bill
Maya,
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about this. It is all about hubris. Hubris is much discussed on the battlefield between the gods and heroes (Diomedes with various gods, Patroclus with Apollo)
If the famous Delphic maxim to "Know Thyself." actually means "Know your place." the Thersites was definitely in violation of it if he was a commoner. The staff that Odysseus beats him with is a mock thunderbolt and the crowd laughs because we all laugh when the gods give someone something they richly deserve. But if this is a lesson in "hubris" why at this point in the Iliad? Why with Odysseus( of all people) representing the gods?
Bill,
DeleteI think this laughter is rather nervous and if it expresses any joyful emotion at all, it is that he who laughs is not he who receive the "deserved" thing. After all, everybody was running to the ships to sail home, weren't they? (I put "deserve" in scare quotes because it is deserved only if we agree that might is right.)
The laughter was also bitter because, after the nascent hope, everyone realized that they were not going home now, and many of them would not go home ever.
The person representing the gods should have been Agamemnon, but it would be awkward, because it was he who made the mess with Chryses, the plague, the quarrel with Achilles and now the rush to the ships and the ruined morale of the troops.