TFBT: Choruses of Young Women in Ancient Greece

I am looking forward to reading this book. from Claude Calame: Choruses of Young Women in Ancient Greece   (Currently I am reading "The Cambridge Companion to Greek Mythology." Calame has a piece in the collection I really enjoyed, "Greek Myth & Greek Religion". )

“Choruses” has a rather jam-packed technical introduction.  I hope to follow up with the text where maybe some of the topics in the introduction at followed up on.  Specifically:  

• "Aotis as a very hypothetical goddess of the Dawn sometimes identified with Artemis or with Aphrodite" This is an interesting idea.   I read some papers on the Eos/Aphrodite connection ages ago.  It adds some insight to their sons(s) Memnon's and Aeneas' adventures at Troy. Upon further research “very hypothetical” is accurate.  Apparently the theory that there was proto-IE goddess of the dawn name Hausus or Heusos, hasn’t worked out to anyone’s satisfaction.  
• I have never read about a Spartan cult of Aphrodite-Hera?
• “An old wooden image they call that of Aphrodite Hera. A mother is wont to sacrifice to the goddess when a daughter is married.” (Pausanias 3.13.9) 
• 1.1.5 homosexual - Sappho at Lesbos - Alcman’s chorus of young girls.  I wonder if Sappho doesn’t have way to much influence on what we think about teenage girls in Ancient Greece?  
• What is Marxist criticism?  I assume this is some sort of literary criticism  
• “Marxist literary criticism is a loose term describing literary criticism based on socialist and dialectic theories. Marxist criticism views literary works as reflections of the social institutions from which they originate.”  (Wikipedia)
• "Archaic "literature" is never gratuitous, nor does it have the critical dimension of Alexandrian or modern poetry; it is always subject to the demands of the civic community for which it exists; it has to be understood as a social act."  Really?  Ever story in the Iliad reflects an associated ritual?  
• "But since Spartan history has been so idealized and deformed"   What?  
• “Ethnological and anthropological research offers the philologist a very precious instrument to interpret”. But shouldn't we be careful about this tool for literary criticism and close readings?

 In Chapter 2 Calame actually talks about choruses and points out that most chorus of young girls represent Artemis’ troop of Oreads.  She also acknowledges, Apollo’s Muses, the Nereids and the Oceanides the accompanied Persephone.  (I got to thinking that some of them were the naiad daughters of Achelous who were turned into the sirens who accompanied her in Hades.)  A couple of her examples caught my eye.

“The Corinthians, forbidden to take the suppliants from the temple by force, tried to wear them down by starvation; but the Samians lifted the Corinthians' siege by instituting a festival in which choruses of maidens and ephebes carried sesame cakes and honey to the goddess; the children from Corcyra hid the food and ate it and were thus saved. This ritual was performed regularly thereafter.”

“After having danced and sung (παιδιὰν καὶ τέρψιν), they wanted to honor the goddess with an offering in place of a meal, and they offered her salt. The following year, the offering was not repeated, and the young people suffered a visitation of cosmic anger (μῆνις) and an epidemic (λοιμός) sent by Artemis. Since then, the offering of a meal was regularly made.”

Both these ritual represent a phenomena I call Once and for Always.   Jenny Strauss-Clay (The Politics of Olympus, 1989) concludes that the opening scene of the HH to Apollo “portrays both the first epiphany of the new god on the threshold of Olympus and his eternally repeated entrance into this father’s house…as he did the first time and as he will forever.” Particularly in the salt ceremony above, what men saw as temporary, the gods saw as eternal.  And what a difference perspective made in this case.


I was trying to think of other chorus, but most do seem dedicated to Artemis.  I found this one;

 
"Maidens, one Nymph of old in Thebes did Athanaia (Athena) love much, yea beyond all her companions, even the mother of Tiresias, and was never apart from her. But when she drave her steeds …often did the goddess set the Nymph upon her car and there was no dalliance of Nymphs nor sweet ordering of the dance, where Chariclo did not lead.  (Callimachus, Hymn 5 Bath of Pallas 56 ff)

  

TFBT: Hesiod's Cosmos, Part III

Over the Thanksgiving holiday I read Jenny Strauss Clay’s “Hesiod’s Cosmos”.  Looking at previous blogposts.  Apparently this is my third read-through.  Apparently, her insights are sticking, because as I read through my posts and studied the underlined items in the text, I said to myself, “I knew this already.”   

So the insights I offer here are a little different for a couple of reasons.  1)  My next big article will be about Aeacus and Arbitration in Ancient Greek myth.  2)  Freed from having to follow the now well-known arguments, I could now read for enjoyment alone.  I hope you will do the same. All quotes are from Clay unless noted otherwise.

Aeacus and Arbitration

 “To favored kings they (the Muses) dispense the mollifying rhetoric that has the power to resolve even a great quarrel; those who have been wronged are sooth and reconciled.”

 “The people all look to him as he discerns the ordinances with straight judgments and he speaking without stumbling, quickly and expertly makes and end even to a big quarrel.” Theogony 84-87

 “The setting is clearly a communal feast shared by gods and men[i] a dias, whose very name derives from the act of division or apportionment; hence the formulaic expression, dais eish, referring to a fair and equitable distribution.  As a social institution, the dias eish involves two distinct kinds of apportionment; the first is a division into strictly equal parts…the second constitutes the portion of honor the geras, assigned in recognition of particular excellence or esteem.  With his division of the meat, Prometheus honors men by giving them all the edible parts of the ox.  By this very act, he deprives the gods of that part of the dais eish that legitimately belong to them.”   

Random Notes

“The gods in their blissful state needed the presence of inferior creatures to enjoy their superiority fully.”

“Pandora, who is coeval with the hiding of bios” Hey, same as Eve.

μηδέ ποτ᾽ οὐλομένην πενίην θυμοφθόρον ἀνδρὶ  τέτλαθ᾽ ὀνειδίζειν,

Don’t ever dare to blame a man for cursed soul-destroying poverty. 

Theogony 717

“Cereberus will later receive a place and function in the organization of Tartarus, ensuring that the dead cannot escape from the underworld.”  This is wrong.  Cereberus is there to keep the living from accidentally wandering in.  

“At the outset, the cosmos came into being when Gaia became oppressed by the burden of her children within; so now in a parallel fashion  the external pressure of human population weighs her down.”   I think a better parallel is that the cosmos came into being when Gaia was oppressed by the constant weight of Uranus upon her and now “the external pressure of human population weighs her down”.  Gee, what does that say about us?  The severing of the demi-gods from their lives at Thebes and Troy constitutes a new dispensation, because the gods like their grandfather Uranus pull back from the earth.  “It renders permanent the gulf separating the eternal gods from ephemeral mortals.”  It is the birth of the Iron Age, when Man rules.

“I am convinced that meaning inheres in form.”

“The succession of races is not linear but cyclical; at the end of the age of iron…the cycle of races stars again with a new golden age or more likely a new age of heroes as the sequence reverse itself.”

“Thebes, traditionally reputed to be the first city.”

“Thebes and Troy where the heroes demonstrate their valor – and perhaps provide entertainment for the gods.”  

---

[i] The feast at Mecone celebrating the victory of the Olympians and their allies over the Titans.  It is the time of the Great Dispensation when Zeus allotted each their prerogatives, privileges and powers.

TFBT: *Updated* The Ten Greatest Mythologists of our Age

“Mythologist” is sort of an old fashion word. These researchers of the Iliad and Greek Mythology might be called Philologists, Classicists, Latinists or professors, scholars, researchers or lecturers of Classical Studies. And yes, this is only my uncredentialed opinion.
1) Aaron J. Atsma 

Aaron J Atsma of Auckland, New Zealand is the creator and web-master of http://www.theoi.com/  This is a magnificent site I visit all the time. It is well written and well organized. All articles include the source material in common translation. As the name implies, Atsma’s research centers on the Greek divinities. His interpretation of myths, particularly in correspondences is often lacking a classical reference, but they induce that intuitive “Aha!” that helps make so much sense of the topic at hand.
2) Jenny Strauss-Clay 

Jenny Strauss-Clay is the William R. Kenan, Jr. Professor of Classics at the University of Virginia she received degrees from Reed College, the University of Chicago and the University of Washington I find her writing clear, concise and thought provoking. I revisit her works constantly. Her works includ; Hesiod's Cosmos Cambridge University Press, 2003. Which I refer to constantly and think is a requirement for anyone wanting to understand one of the foundation documents of Classical Studies. · The Wrath of Athena: Gods and Men in the Odyssey. Princeton University Press, 1983. Reprint, Rowman and Littlefield, 1996. · The Politics of Olympus: Form and Meaning in the Major Homeric Hymns. Princeton University Press. 1989. Her articles include; The Dais of Death Transactions of the American Philological Association (1974-), Vol. 124, (1994), pp. 35-40 · The Generation of Monsters in Hesiod Classical Philology, Vol. 88, No. 2 (Apr., 1993), pp. 105-116 She has a website at http://classics.virginia.edu/people/profile/jsc2t

3) NS Gill 

N.S. Gill blogs on tangents to Ancient History, Latin, and Mythology at https://ancthisttangents.wordpress.com/   . N.S. Gill has a B.A. in Latin and an M.A. in linguistics at the University of Minnesota.  Her site is well linked and covers a broad range of classical topics.  

4) Ian C. Johnston 

Ian Johnston is a retired instructor (now a Research Associate) at Vancouver Island University (the new name for Malaspina College), Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada. He received a BS from McGills in Geology and Chemistry, BA from Bristols in English and Greek and MA from Toronto in Engineering. Johnston has written about almost everything and translated books on the rest of everything. His books include The Ironies of War: An introduction to Homer’s Iliad University Press of America (1988) His articles include as brilliant series of essays on Homer’s Iliad · Essay 1: Homer's War · Essay 2: Homer's Similes: Nature as Conflict
· Essay 3: The Gods
· Essay 4: The Heroic Code
· Essay 5: Arms and the Men
· Essay 6: Hector and Achilles
· Essay 7: Homer and the Modern Imagination
· Essay 8: On Modern English Translations of the Iliad

Ian Johnston’s website is at http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/ It is designed to provide curricular material for various courses in literature and Liberal Studies. Johnston writes on myriad topics in addition to classical studies and all the articles at his website are thought provoking and professional.
5) Deborah Lyons 

Deborah Lyons is an Associate Professor in the Department of Classics Miami University, her education was at Princeton University -- M.A. 1983; Ph.D. 1989. Her books include · Gender and Immortality: Heroines in Ancient Greek Myth and Cult. Princeton University Press (1997). She covers a wide range of topics and is thought provoking. Her articles include;
· The Sexual Life of Satyrs by F. Lissarrague and “One, Two, Three...Eros” by J.-P. Vernant in Before Sexuality, Princeton University Press, 1990. Her website is http://miamioh.edu/cas/academics/departments/classics/about/faculty-staff/lyons/index.html

6) Gregory Nagy  

Gregory Nagy is a professor of Classics at Harvard University, and the director of the Center for Hellenic Studies, a Harvard school in Washington DC. He is the Francis Jones Professor of Classical Greek Literature and Professor of Comparative Literature at Harvard, and continues to teach half-time at the Harvard campus in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He studied at Indiana University and Harvard receiving his PhD in Classical Philology and Linguistics in 1966. I find Professor Nagy inspiring! The handful of his books I’ve read from the library which is his total writings, are approachable, readable, instructive and full of insights. Nagy’s books include; The Best Of The Achaeans; Concepts Of The Hero In Archaic Greek Poetry Johns Hopkins University Press (1981) This is another book I refer to constantly and found quite enlightening. Greek Mythology and Poetics Cornell University Press (1992) His articles include; · Phaethon, Sappho's Phaon, and the White Rock of Leukas Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 77, (1973), pp. 137-177 Homeric Questions Transactions of the American Philological Association (1974-), Vol. 122, (1992), pp. 17-60

Professor Nagy is also the lead instructor of “The Ancient Greek Warrior in 24 Hours” a free massive online open classroom sponsored by Harvard and EdX Other websites include The Center for Hellenic Studies, Harvard's Classics department under faculty profiles  and Hour 25
7) Carlos Parada 

Carlos Parada is a former lecturer in Classics at Lund University in Sweden. His books include Genealogical Guide to Greek Mythology Coronet Books (1993) His website is Greek Mythology Link This is an incredible well organized, heavily linked depository of everything dealing with Greek mythology. The complexity and thoroughness of his efforts are unbelievable and incredibly valuable.
8) Ruth Scodel 

Ruth Scodel is the D. R. Shackleton Bailey Collegiate Professor of Greek and Latin at the University of Michigan. She studied at Harvard University 1973-1978, Ph.D. June 1978 University of California, Berkeley 1969-1973 A.B. June 1973. I’ve found her writing refreshing and offering unique perspectives. Her books include
Listening to Homer University of Michigan Press (2009)
Her articles include; Apollo's Perfidy: Iliad ω 59-63 Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 81, (1977), pp. 55-57 · The Gods' Visit to the Ethiopians in "Iliad" 1 Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 103, (2007), pp. 83-98 The Suitors' Games The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 122, No. 3 (Autumn, 2001), pp. 307-327 The Word of Achilles Classical Philology, Vol. 84, No. 2 (Apr., 1989), pp. 91-99 The Wits of Glaucus Transactions of the American Philological Association (1974-), Vol. 122, (1992), pp. 73-84 · The Achaean Wall and the Myth of Destruction Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 86, (1982), pp. 33-50 Her website can be found at http://www-personal.umich.edu/~rscodel/home.html

9) Laura Slatkin 

Laura Slatkin is a professor at New York University (Gallatin School). She is also currently visiting professor on the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago. She was educated with B.A. Classics, Harvard University, 1968, M.A. Classics, University of Cambridge, 1970, Ph.D. Classical Philology, Harvard University, 1979. I find her writing clear, concise and convincing. Her articles include; Gender and Homer Epic (with Nancy Felson) in the Cambridge Companion to Homer, Robert Fowler editor. I loved that line “men, women, gods and goddesses, working out their very different fortunes in a universe win which kleos (glory) is the highest value." I like how this article takes a different prespective on Homer’s two greatest poems by contrasting the relationships of the genders in each. “Notes on Tragic Visualizing in the Iliad” also. I appreciate your insights into seeing, particularly the thought that the mist that veils the divinities from mortals correlates to the final mist that covers the eyes of us. You really piqued my interest with the discussion on Achilles' sight. . Her books include; The Power of Thetis University of California Press (1995). I simply adore this book and think it gave me a greater understanding of The Iliad and swift-footed Achilles than any other book I read.

10) Vanessa James 

Vanessa James is associate professor and chair of theatre arts at Mount Holyoke College. She was educated at University of Bristol, England, C.I.D and Wimbledon College of Art, Dip. AD James is another author who writes on myriad topics. Her books include; The Genealogy of Greek Mythology: An Illustrated Family Tree of Greek Mythology from the First Gods to the Founders of Rome Penguin Group, USA (2003) This accordion-style book, includes a full genealogy as well as color illustrations and stories about Greek gods. It perfect for those of us who need handy visual and textual materials when studying relationship amongst mythological characters. Of course, I am one of those people who can read a genealogy table. Her website is at http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/facultyprofiles/vanessa_james.html

 

TFBT: Ben's Curriculum, Part VI

 

9.  Brood of Echidna

 

 "Men say that Typhoeus the terrible, outrageous and lawless, was joined in love to her Echidna, the maid with glancing eyes. So she conceived and brought forth fierce offspring; first she bare Orthus the hound of Geryon, and then again she bare a second, a monster not to be overcome and that may not be described, Cerberus who eats raw flesh, the brazen-voiced hound of Haides, fifty-headed, relentless and strong. And again she bore a third, the evil-minded Hydra of Lerna, whom the goddess, white-armed Hera nourished, being angry beyond measure with the mighty Herakles . . . She (Echidna) was the mother of Chimera who breathed raging fire, a creature fearful, great, swift-footed and strong, who had three heads, one of a grim-eyed lion; in her hinderpart, a dragon; and in her middle, a goat, breathing forth a fearful blast of blazing fire”  (Hesiod, Theogony 306)

 

Echidna was the Mother of All Monsters.  Okay not all of them, but so far we have Orthus, Cerberus, the Hydra, and Chimera.  Other authors add; the Crommyon Sow and the Sphinx of Thebes.

 

In theory much of the struggles in Greek mythology represent the gods (and civilization) creating order out of Chaos and the heroes, especially Heracles, slaying the monstrous representatives of Chaos; the monsters.  Orthus was a two headed dog, Cerberus a multi-head dog, the Hydra a nine-headed poisonous serpent, the Chimera had three different heads and breathed fire, the Crommyon Sow was a giant pig and mother of a similar beast, the man-eating Sphinx was half womanish with a lioness’ body serpent for a tail and wings.  Their mother was a man-eater, half an immortal “maid with glancing eyes”, and half serpent.  And we won’t even describe their monstrous, wild and immortal father.  He almost destroyed the universe.  Here’s the catch, most of them were someone’s pet.[i]

 

Orthus was a sheep dog for King Geryon.  Geryon was a three-bodied monster from another lineage of monsters.  Geryon wondered if he was divine or mortal.  Heracles made the decision by slaying Geryon and his guard dog. 

 

Cerberus is the three headed dog is the pet of Lord Hades.  Cerberus guards the gates of Hell.  Sounds pretty ferocious right?  Let’s think about that.  A dog can’t bit a ghost, he’s not keeping them in.  He’s attempting to keep us form accidently wandering.  Dogs are man’s best friend. 

 

The Hydra was a nine headed poisonous serpent ruining the countryside.  Hera, Queen of the Gods was his wet nurse.  When Heracles cut off one of the Hydra’s heads, two more appeared in its place.  The hulking hero ended up slicing off a head and holding the neck, so his therapon could scorch the stub.  Then on the next.  When they found the immortal invulnerable head, they buried it under a rock.

 

The Chimera was brought up by Amisodarus, king of Caria.  He used the monster on his enemies in battle.  Talk about a weapon of massive destruction.  It was slain by a hero and another monster from the other monster lineage; Pegasus, the uncle of Geryon.

 

The Crommyon Sow and her descendants were just giant pigs rutting and tearing up the country-side.  Their lineage was killed off by the heroes, who sacrificed and ate them.

 

Hera, asked the man-eating Sphinx to lay waste to Thebes.  The Olympian gods didn’t exactly love the Theban deities.  When Oedipus defeated the Sphinx at her own game, she leapt onto the rocks and killed herself, just like the Sirens (who were once beautiful maidens but made some bad life choices.)  Oh wait!  They were all immortal.  Remember no one really dies in Greek mythology.  The Sphinx and the Sirens just became goddesses of the funeral rites living underground sort of like the guard dog Orthus lived above ground and his brother lived below ground in the same role.

 

Jenny Strauss-Clay (Hesiod's Cosmos) is kind enough to refer to the "monsters" of Greek mythology as "hybrids".  Their "monstrousness" seems due, not to their vastness or evil intent, but because they are not theomorphic like ourselves.  We lucked out.  The gods could have decided they liked their monsters better than us and they would have been the “heroes” hunting us to extinction.

---

[i] "They say that the Lion of Nemea fell from the moon (Selene). At any rate Epimenides [C6th B.C. poet] also has these words : ‘For I am sprung from fair-tressed Selene the Moon, who in a fearful shudder shook off the savage lion in Nemea, and brought him forth at the bidding of Queen Hera.’" (Aelian, On Animals 12. 7)   http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html

 

TFBT: Ben's Curriculum, Part V

A nice, wild-haired young man named Ben, contacted me one day.  He was wanted to learn about Greek mythology in the esoteric sense.    It was an opportunity for our own personal spiritual growth by studying these old “truths”.   Here is the basic out-line of the curriculum for our one-on-one course. 

 

7. Proto-event, Once, and For Always   

 

You know how people talk about circular time?   The theory is that the cosmos is a great cycle that repeats itself over and over again, maybe with a big boom.    Sort of; 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4……..  Most people believe in linear time.  Sort of; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8…End.  In Greek mythology it doesn’t work like that.  Time does not repeat itself. There is no Judgement Day or Ends of Days.  Rather, there is the Proto-event with no historical context for understanding it, the first time it definitely happens, that’s Once and then the next time is For Always.  Sort of; 0, 1, ∞ 

 

Lenny Muellner and Jenny Strauss-Clay are clearly smarter than I and better to explain this.  So I refer you to the following blogposts where I reviewed, summarized and use their materials on this topic.

• Is Anchises a Casanova?
• Muellner’s Menis
• Once and For Always 

 

8.  There is No Satan in Greek Mythology

TFBT: Táin Bó Cúalnge

In “Hesiod’s Cosmos”  Jenny Strauss Clay present the Monsters as an alternative to the Heroes.  “Chrysaor mighty and armed like the Giants, and who also unites with a nymph, the Oceanid Kallirhoe, represents and alternative progenitor to the alternative race of mortals.”  They were the parents of three-bodied Geryon.  I thought Clay’s mention of the Giants interesting.    Most conversation in classical circles about “monsters” center on size and asymetricity.    In the wars of succession, Cronus and Zeus allied with the monstersous Hectaonchires and Cyclopes.  But in the Gigantomachy the Olymians chose to ally with the demi-gods rather than the other hybrid race descended from the gods; the monsters.

Still the gods (and men) had their uses for  monsters.  Three-headed Cerberus was the guard dog of Lord Hades (Hesiod, Theogony 310), two-headed Orthos, who was Geryones' herding dog (Hesiod, Theogony 309) Sphinx was a scourge that held Thebes in suppression, that Hera sent upon them   (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 52 – 55)   "The Nemeian Lion the goddess Hera, the queenly wife of Zeus, trained up and settled among the hills of Nemeia (Hesiod, Theogony 327)    The Lydian King Amisodaros nourished the furious Chimera to be an evil to his enemies.( Homer, Iliad 16. 328)

I mention all the above because  we are currently reading ancient Irish epic tale “Táin Bó Cúalnge”  The main character is Cuchulain son of Sualtaim;  Sualtaim Sidech (of the Fairy Mound.)  I assume that  this means Cuchulain's father is of the fay.    Cuchulain is called "This young, beardless elf-man". I assume the phrase elf-man is in reference to Cuchulain being a “halfling”; half mortal, half fairy.  Such men are consider very powerful in fairy lore (King Arthurs’ father was a, er, let’s say “daemon” .)  In Greek mythology the demi-gods were considered very powerful, for example Heracles and Achilles.   

I’ve come to the conclusion that Cu Chulain; the Hound of Chulain is a monster.  I finally realized this in reading the description of  the Brown Bull of Cualnge.    Both show the same disregard for their youth playmates.  The phrase; “he threw off the thrice fifty boys who were wont to play on his back and he destroyed two-thirds of the boys.”  Could easily apply to their.  The seem to have no sense of strategy, their acts of violence are random; their appetites enormous, their strength in human.   The “Hound” has seven digits on each appendage. 

 

I’m not half way through maybe the hound will redeem himself.

TFBT: The Titan Perses and Zeus' Allies

I have written several blogs referencing “Hesiod’s Cosmos” by Jenny Strauss-Clay, in particular;  TFBT: Random Notes on Hesiod’s Cosmos ,  and TFBT: Clay's Five Ages of Man.  The former generated a lengthy conversation between my friend Maya M. and I.  I thought we had some interesting thoughts and insights.   This is my first attempt at unweaving the threads of our rambling conversation and reweaving them into coherent blog posts.

 I thought the bulk of our conversation was about Hesiod the composer of the Theogony and Works & Days.  In the latter he whines constantly about his foolish brother Perses.  I was wrong.  We actually talked  about the Titan Perses. 

 There is a theortical connection between the Titan Perses and Hesiod’s brother Perses.  The theory is that the third generation Titaness Hecate was the particular goddess of  Hesiod’s family.  The theory is based on where the mortal brothers grew up and Hesiod’s overly abundant  praise of  the otherwise obscure goddess Hecate.  The Titan Perses is the father of Hecate.  So I have always thought it is not surprising that one of the brothers is named after the Titan.  I was probably wrong about that too as you will see below

Some suspect that "brother Perses" was 100% invented, just a literary device. However, the Works & Days sounds too authentic. Possibly Hesiod indeed had a brother who took more of their father's estate than Hesiod was inclined to give him. In myth, Perses "the destroyer" is a 2nd generation Titan who never destroys anything. Hesiod describes him in the Theogony as "eminent among all men in wisdom", crooked or otherwise. If the translation is accurate, why is a god compared to mortal men unless Hesiod has another person in mind? Perses leads Asteria "to his great house to be called his dear wife". Maybe Hesiod's brother could also build a "great" house with the snatched portion of his father's estate. Then, Perses was presumably imprisoned in Tartarus for the rest of time,   Maybe Hesiod named his brother Perses not only because of him being "destroyer" of the estate but to have the unfortunate Titan Perses as his mythological double.  Getting your “foolish” brother tossed into Tartarus sounds like nice wish-fulfillment.

Hesiod didn't name his “fictional” brother Perses after the defeated Titan. He named the fictional titan after his real brother. For many of the Titans there is no proof of their existence until the Theogony. Titan Perses is only in the Theogony. The W & D keeps silence about Titan Perses.   

For many of the Titans there is no proof of their existence until the Theogony."Just think about it, "pious" Hesiod inventing gods!   We  browsed Theoi.com to check the Titans for authenticity. Criteria: if the Titan is mentioned by Homer or has a cult, he is likely to be authentic. The following Titans made it:

• 1st generation: Cronus, Oceanus, Hyperion (barely), Iapetos (barely), Rhea, Themis, Tethys, Mnemosyne (barely).
• 2nd generation: Helios, Atlas, Prometheus, Leto, Selene, Eos. We didn't count here the elder Oceanids.
• Hecate stands out as a single "3rd generation Titaness" who is undoubtedly authentic, though none of her parents seems to be.

To the victor goes the spoils!" With the exception of Atlas, all the "authentic" 2nd and 3rd titans were allies of Zeus in the Titanomachy. One wonders why the Titan Pallas wasn't smart enough to join his wife and kids when the allied themselves with Zeus.

It is a pity that we have lost the Titanomachy. A fragment attributed to it says that Prometheus has been herald of the Titans. We have no data of the Hyperionides. Even if the remained neutral in the war or even if Helios fought on the "wrong" side, Zeus may have decided to keep them as irreplaceable experts. The same may have been true for Prometheus, if he was needed for the creation of humans. Alternatively, he may have been an ally and may have been assigned to human affairs at the 1st Mecone Conference, but we have no source for this. All we know is that he appears at the 2nd Mecone Conference out of nowhere and Zeus for unknown reasons gives into his hands both the bread and the knife (this is an idiom meaning "full control over the situation"; in this case, "both the ox and the knife" is more precise).

If Atlas took the side of Zeus like his brother Prometheus and Epitheus, he must have been honored with the job to support the sky. And it would be logical; as one modern Hellenist said, supporting the world seems too important job to be entrusted to someone pissed off for losing a war against you.

We have no data about Leto and Hecate in the Titanomachy; is there any evidence they were even been born at that time? If Leto has been an ally of Zeus, then he has betrayed her gravely. He has not made her goddess of anything (all the time she has is secured by her children) and, if we take the story of her flight as usually told, he has left her and their child(ren) at the mercy of Hera after impregnating her. The honors given by Zeus to Hecate are often understood to imply that she has been an ally of Zeus. However, this is not explicitly written, and there are other explanations. Maybe her honors were for the same reasons as those of Nyx and her brood., maybe she actually belonged to the progeny of Nyx. In the Homeric hymn to Demeter, Hecate opposes Zeus (and btw so does Helios).

It is funny that Styx and Hecate are referred to as allies, nice the goddesses and titanesses all stayed with Oceanus and Tethys during the Titanomachy. The goddesses didn't take up arms until the Gigantomachy. The Titanomachy (like the castration of Cronus) was a male affair except that Iris and her sister Arce, served as messengers of the Olympians and Titans respectively. So Leto and Hecate had no business there anyway.

Styx is a peculiar case. Hesiod explicitly writes that she was Zeus' ally, and the fact that she was a river goddess shows that she may be a "honorary male". So her portrayal in the Hymn to Demeter as picking flowers is sort of a laugh.

As for Helios, let's remember the Odyssey. When Odysseus' men eat Helios' cattle, how does Helios turn to Zeus? Does he use the "If I ever have..." expression, as Thetis does and as we expect from an ally? No, he says, “Father Zeus and you other gods, immortally blessed, take vengeance on the followers of Odysseus.. They have killed my cattle... If they do not atone for their killing, I will go down to Hades and shine for the dead instead.” This is not a formulaic request, actually not a request at all. This is an ultimatum by someone who has formidable power in his domain and cares little about Zeus.   Definitely doesn't sound like a proper personal conversation!

One wonders what Demeter said. According to the HH to Demeter, she didn't say much, even though all the gods at various times came and beg her to relent. Finally Zeus sends Hermes to Hades to discuss Persephone, "But she was afar off, brooding on her fell design because of the deeds of the blessed gods." Which means that Hades and Hermes "went apart" " And the strong Slayer of Argus drew near and said:[347] "Dark-haired Hades, ruler over the departed, father Zeus bids me bring noble Persephone forth from Erebus unto the gods, that her mother may see her with her eyes and cease from her dread anger with the immortals; for now she plans an awful deed, to destroy the weakly tribes of earthborn men" That "bids" sounds a lot like "begs".

Anyway, Demeter like Helios got her way without saying pretty please.

TFBT:Why the Gods Created Man

“τοῖς δὲ θεοῖς λόγιον ἦν ὑπὸ θεῶν μὲν μηδένα τῶν Γιγάντων ἀπολέσθαι δύνασθαι, συμμαχοῦντος δὲ θνητοῦ τινος τελευτήσειν.”

Apollodorus 1.6.1,  trans J. G. Frazer

 

Maya M. asked why the gods of Ancient Greek myth created man?  I asked more specifically why Cronus was the first to attempt this grand experiment that took 5 attempts under two different divine regimes? 

 

This is a sketchy proposal, but it might possible be one answer or part of the answer; “Now the gods had an oracle that none of the giants could perish at the hand of gods, but that with the help of a mortal they would be made an end of.” Apollodorus does not say which “gods”.  But the metopes of several ancient temples include virtual all the gods not just the Olympians in the Gigantomachy and in contrast to to the Titanomachy, almost all the goddess too.   Gaea seemed to be familiar with this prophecy, too..  What if all the gods knew the prophecy? Image the look on the Titans’ faces as they pondered the oracle, saying “What’s a giant?”  “More importantly what is a mortal?” 

 

So aware of the doom laying before the divine community; generation after generation of gods perfected the race that would save them.  First the golden age of man; a failed experiment without fire or women[i].  The Silver Age added then Motherhood.  Next the Bronze Age and our benefactor Prometheus; in pages 106-107  of “Hesiod’s Cosmos” Clay argues that Prometheus’ affection for humanity was more mercenary than philanthropic.  The Titan adds  fire and Pandoric wives to the blood line.  As the final moments of the Gigantomachy approach, a dash of ichor in human veins and Zeus spend three days and nights in the siring of Heracles.[ii] 

Tierasias at Heracles birth calls him the hero of the Gigantomachy to come.[iii]  According to the metopes several other demi-gods join him.  The gods win, the giants loss.  At Thebes and Troy the heroes and demi-gods battle to the death.  The gods pull the veil and are done with improving their creation.[iv]  

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[i] Page 87 “Hesiod’s Cosmos” Jenny Strauss Clay

[ii] The Preparation for the Gospel, Eusenius, page 54

[iii] Pindar  Nemean 1.67-72

[iv] This timeline follows page 63, Emma Stafford, “Herakles”

TBFT; Still Fruitful After All These Years

Maya M, asked if I thought that after the veil was pulled; “do gods retain any ability to reproduce?”  She's  asking a rather unknowable and abstract question.  But I have a few insights to share.   

In reading “Awakening Osiris” by Normandi Ellis, I somehow got the impression that when Hathor kicked in the blue door of Heaven, he met a lot of “unknown” gods.  That is to say gods with no cult or worship that are only referenced in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.  That notion transferred into my studies of Greek myth.  Let introduce you to a few “unknown” gods in Olympus

·      Alexiares and Anicetus, the twin sons of Heracles & Hebe.[i]

·      Diomedes given nectar and immortality by Athena.[ii]

·      Dionysus’ mother Thyone and wife Ariadne[iii]

The point being;  here are a bunch of gods that we know about occupying Olympus, just imagine how many more there could be that we don’t know about.   

That said, the suggestion that Zeus of all people could no longer father sons, is a violation of Jenny Strauss-Clay’s Law of Once and For Always  and as  Deborah Lyons points out in Gender and Immortality, “The beds of the gods are always fruitful. “   These two laws in place it might seem odd that Zeus and Hera only had three children.  I once asked Prof. Seemee Ali, (from Carthage College)  what child was born of their coupling on Mt. Ida during the Trojan War (Iliad, Book 14)  Her response was that what was born that day was a new dispensation established between Hera and Zeus that smoothed the way towards the war’s foretold conclusion.  Abstractions like that can occupy a lot of rooms in Olympus above and Hades below. 

 

So I see plenty of evidence the divine kept reproducing like rabbits even after they quite joining with the daughters of men.  

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[i] "Herakles achieved immortality, and when Hera's enmity changed to friendship, he married her daughter Hebe, who bore him sons Alexiares and Anicetus."  Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 158 

[ii] According to the post Homeric stories, Diomedes was given immortality by Athena, which she had not given to his father. Pindar mentions the hero's deification in Nemean X, where he says "the golden-haired, gray-eyed goddess made Diomedes an immortal god." In order to attain immortality, a scholiast for Nemean X (J.B. Bury, Pindar: Nemean Odes) says Diomedes married Hermione, the only daughter of Menelaus and Helen, and lives with the Dioscuri as an immortal god while also enjoying honours in Metapontum and Thurii.

[iii]  After her death, Semele was led by her son out of the lower world, and carried up to Olympus as “Thyone” (Pind. Ol. ii. 44, Pyth. xi 1; Paus. ii. 31. § 2, 37. § 5; Apollod. iii. 5.)  "And golden-haired Dionysos made blonde-haired Ariadne, the daughter of Minos, his buxom wife: and the son of Kronos made her deathless and unageing for him." (Hesiod, Theogony 947)