I have been pondering the “epic” of Nestor. It should include the cosmic battle between gods and men that destroyed sandy Pylos and decimated the royal family, young king Nestor ‘s desperate effort to save the remnant of his people, the war with the Moloines and battles with the Centaurs & Amazons. As I poked around sources on the issue, I kept seeing references to “an Aetolian-Elean-Pylian cycle” with praise for M.L. West research on it. His research can be found in “The Hesiodic Catalogue of Women; Its Nature, Structure and Origins” 1985
Hesiod is credited with writing a poem about mortal women who slept with immortal gods. They are the ancestresses of the royal families of Ancient Greece. Alas the “Catalogue of Women” is lost and only fragments remain. West has done a brilliant and convincing job of aligning the fragments, extrapolating what was missing and reconstructing Hesiod’s lost masterpiece; its nature, structure and origins. This is a wonderful and well written book!
In untangling the fragments of cascading genealogical material he began to see clusters of stories and insights. We are familiar with two such clusters of myths; (4) The Trojan Cycle and (3) The Theban Wars. He postulates two more (an Aetolian-Elean-Pylian cycle”1) An Iolkos cycle and (2) an Aetolian-Elean-Pylian cycle. Each with their own style and motivation.
What I present here I hope is enough to entice you get a copy of the book yourself to better understand the concept of the 4 Cycles. I also include some random notes I hope you will find interesting
West suggests the Greek myths fall more or less into 4 great story cycles;
“the Aetolian and Elean kings were traced back to Aethlios” (page 141 and 174)
There seems that the sons of Demodike (daughter of Agenor) represent the peoples of the Pylian Cycle. The boys are Evenus, Molos, Pylos and Thestios. West refers to Molos’ grandsons (the Siamese twins that Nestor battled in his youth) as “monstrous” and equates them with the giant Aloadi. (pages 62, 63
“We know that the Theban cycle was established before the Iliad and before Hesiod.” (page 154) West’s argument here is based on votive offerings.Random Notes
"One recurring pattern which may have struck the reader is that of an archetype-figure who has three sons standing for major divisions in the populations.” (page 27)
"The moment (Menelaus and Helen's daughter) Hermoine’s birth has been there registered there is an abrupt switch to the gods.They are riven with dissension because of Zeus’ great plan to stir up a war, destroy large numbers of men and to remove the sons of gods to live apart in the paradise conditions they had enjoyed in the beginning. What follows is astounding as far as we can follow it, it describes not the abduction of Helen and the conseqent outbreak of war, but a fundamental change in the conditions of life. Man was no longer to enjoy the easy abundance of hitherto. He was to be forced to sail about the sea, to adopt a trade economy (page 119 on fragment 5.201)
"Besides begetting children in the customary way, Deucalion created a tribe of men by throwing stones Zeus put in his way. These were the Leleges." 52
West discussing the word "Hellenes" says "Hellenes in this context do not represent the Greek nation as distinct from barbarian, but the Hellenes of Iliad 2.684 who live in Phthia and the north shore of the gulf of Malis" (page 53)
"Hellen's wife is...a nymph of Mount Othrys." (page 57) I find this interesting because this peak was the fortress of the Titans during the ten year Titanomachy
In the course of reading ML West it occurs to me that the gods the turning mortals into birds pre-empts the penalty the Erinyes will enforce.
West is great at explaining every hero’s eponymic name or which town she or he founded.
Speaking of Hesiod “This is not to say that he (Hesiod) was never aware of chronological difficutlites. In Fragment 141.20 he may have said that Zeus allowed Sarpedon to live for three gnerations. Just what is needd to reconcile his pesence at troy with that of Minos’ grandson Idomeneus, since Minos and Sarpedon have been presented as brothers. “ (page 122)
“The (Iliadic?) Catalogue of Ships …starts from Boeotia where the expedition assembled and proceeds at first in a spiral, Phocis, Locris, Euboiea, Attica, Salamis Peloponnese, Kephallena Aetolia, then Crete, Rhodes, etc., then norther Greece. The (Hesiodic ) Catalogue of (Helen’s) Suitors to judge by the incomplete remains, began from the the Peloponnese where Tyndareos lived and again sprialled clockwise to the west, (the same as Il 2.631ff) and north and down to Athens. In Homer Aias follows Menestheus immediately, but here two engries intervened, Salamis was followed by the larger islands, Euboea and Crete.” (page 117) “J.Schwartz indeed suggests that the catalogedaughter of Kleisthenes)” (page 133)
“The Graikoi are perhaps to be located in the west, around or beyond (the River) Pindus. It was presumably their prominence in Epirus at one time that led to their name being estabisihed in Latin for “Greeks” generally." (page 54)
“Why are Nelus and Pilias made twins, when they live at opposite ends of Greece, belonn gto different saga cyles and never hanything to do with one another? The explanation must have something to with the fact the Poseidon made love to their mother in the water of th Enipeus (River). There is an Enipeus right beside Salmone in Pisatis and another in Thesssaly (but close to Iolkos.)” (page 142)
“A vagrant cow led Kadmos to the site of Thebes and a vagrant bull led Europed quiete astray.” 146
“Most of the descendants of Lacedaion, son of Zeus and the mountain nymph Taygete had nothing to do with the Trojan War. “ (page 156)
“There is some reason to think that this patient porter of the earth and sky (Atlas) was once a Peloponnesian mountain god. “
“it is significant that the patronymic Aeacides, which occurs over two dozen times in the Homeric poems, always refers to Peleus or Achilles, never to Aias.” (page 162)
In the Arcadian genealogy, that is the descendants of Callisto and Zeus, “There are no unions between gods and mortal women.” (page 154)
“An Iolkos cycle, comprising the sory of Pelias, Jason, th Argo’s voayae, the Funral Games for Pelias, the sack of Iolkos by Peleus and the deeds of Achilles
An Aetolian-Elean-Pylian cycle, telling of Oineus’ slaughter of the sons of Prothaon, the Calydonian Boar Hunt, the war of the Kourets and Aetolians, the story of Meleagros, Heracles meeting with Meleagros I Hades and his subsequnt marriage to Deianeira, the sack of Oichalia and the war of the Pylians and Epeio.
A Theban Cycle, centring on the quarrel of Oedipus’ sons and the attacks on Thebes by the Seven and the Epigonoi.
A Troy Cycle, telling of the abduction of Helen, the gathering of a great army at Aulis the war at Troy, the murder of Agemon and Orestes’ revenge and other stories of the heroes homecomig. “
“the Aetolian and Elean kings were traced back to Aethlios” (page 141 and 174)
There seems that the sons of Demodike (daughter of Agenor) represent the peoples of the Pylian Cycle. The boys are Evenus, Molos, Pylos and Thestios. West refers to Molos’ grandsons (the Siamese twins that Nestor battled in his youth) as “monstrous” and equates them with the giant Aloadi. (pages 62, 63
“We know that the Theban cycle was established before the Iliad and before Hesiod.” (page 154) West’s argument here is based on votive offerings.Random Notes
"One recurring pattern which may have struck the reader is that of an archetype-figure who has three sons standing for major divisions in the populations.” (page 27)
"The moment (Menelaus and Helen's daughter) Hermoine’s birth has been there registered there is an abrupt switch to the gods.They are riven with dissension because of Zeus’ great plan to stir up a war, destroy large numbers of men and to remove the sons of gods to live apart in the paradise conditions they had enjoyed in the beginning. What follows is astounding as far as we can follow it, it describes not the abduction of Helen and the conseqent outbreak of war, but a fundamental change in the conditions of life. Man was no longer to enjoy the easy abundance of hitherto. He was to be forced to sail about the sea, to adopt a trade economy (page 119 on fragment 5.201)
"Besides begetting children in the customary way, Deucalion created a tribe of men by throwing stones Zeus put in his way. These were the Leleges." 52
West discussing the word "Hellenes" says "Hellenes in this context do not represent the Greek nation as distinct from barbarian, but the Hellenes of Iliad 2.684 who live in Phthia and the north shore of the gulf of Malis" (page 53)
"Hellen's wife is...a nymph of Mount Othrys." (page 57) I find this interesting because this peak was the fortress of the Titans during the ten year Titanomachy
In the course of reading ML West it occurs to me that the gods the turning mortals into birds pre-empts the penalty the Erinyes will enforce.
West is great at explaining every hero’s eponymic name or which town she or he founded.
Speaking of Hesiod “This is not to say that he (Hesiod) was never aware of chronological difficutlites. In Fragment 141.20 he may have said that Zeus allowed Sarpedon to live for three gnerations. Just what is needd to reconcile his pesence at troy with that of Minos’ grandson Idomeneus, since Minos and Sarpedon have been presented as brothers. “ (page 122)
“The (Iliadic?) Catalogue of Ships …starts from Boeotia where the expedition assembled and proceeds at first in a spiral, Phocis, Locris, Euboiea, Attica, Salamis Peloponnese, Kephallena Aetolia, then Crete, Rhodes, etc., then norther Greece. The (Hesiodic ) Catalogue of (Helen’s) Suitors to judge by the incomplete remains, began from the the Peloponnese where Tyndareos lived and again sprialled clockwise to the west, (the same as Il 2.631ff) and north and down to Athens. In Homer Aias follows Menestheus immediately, but here two engries intervened, Salamis was followed by the larger islands, Euboea and Crete.” (page 117) “J.Schwartz indeed suggests that the catalogedaughter of Kleisthenes)” (page 133)
“The Graikoi are perhaps to be located in the west, around or beyond (the River) Pindus. It was presumably their prominence in Epirus at one time that led to their name being estabisihed in Latin for “Greeks” generally." (page 54)
“Why are Nelus and Pilias made twins, when they live at opposite ends of Greece, belonn gto different saga cyles and never hanything to do with one another? The explanation must have something to with the fact the Poseidon made love to their mother in the water of th Enipeus (River). There is an Enipeus right beside Salmone in Pisatis and another in Thesssaly (but close to Iolkos.)” (page 142)
“A vagrant cow led Kadmos to the site of Thebes and a vagrant bull led Europed quiete astray.” 146
“Most of the descendants of Lacedaion, son of Zeus and the mountain nymph Taygete had nothing to do with the Trojan War. “ (page 156)
“There is some reason to think that this patient porter of the earth and sky (Atlas) was once a Peloponnesian mountain god. “
“it is significant that the patronymic Aeacides, which occurs over two dozen times in the Homeric poems, always refers to Peleus or Achilles, never to Aias.” (page 162)
In the Arcadian genealogy, that is the descendants of Callisto and Zeus, “There are no unions between gods and mortal women.” (page 154)
