TFBT; Seers What I Know So Far

Seers What  I Know So Far

Over that the Kosmos Society we have spoken of “seers”much lately.  In English the noun indicates a person who “sees” things the rest of us can’t; that is the second-sight.  I will have to check the Greek but such people sees hear and know things the the rest of us mere mortals are clueless about.    I have just started reviewing Maicar’s list of seers, but here is what I have so far

For the sake of conversation I have divided the Ancient Greek seers into five arbitrary groups.

Successful. Seers whose skills  helped them to live life successfully like Polyidus and Melampus. Polyidus was the seer of Minos’ cattle and son fame.  Melampus was the first mortal seer and ancestor of many more including Polyidus. I will have to look at the genealogy tables to see if living a safe and happy life as a seer means descent from Melampus.

Truth Tellers Who Suffered the Consequences. Seers ho announced the truth and were consequently cursed by men or gods. Laocoon along with his sons was devoured by a sea monster for his troubles.  No one believed Cassandra she and her children were killed along with Agamemnon.  And Chalchas who was threatened harshly.  (John the Baptist lost his head.)

Turncoats. Seers who saw the handwriting on the wall and switched sides betraying their families.  Chalchas,  Helenus and maybe Prometheus 

Immortals. Those seer attaining divine honors after death; Amphiaras and Aristaeus, so far

False Prophets. Seers who actually didn’t have the second sight.  Like Tireasia. Really?   If you had eyes at all and psychic ability wouldn’t you notice some family resemblance in Oedipus?

  A quick review suggest that the only special knowledge he ever displayed was saying that one of the royal family had to leap from the walls to save the city during the War of the Seven AgainstThebes.  .Really?  That is such a literary cliche as to be only noticeable by it’s absence. The unique fact that it was A son of the royal house, just indicates that Creon had already marries off or flung all his daughters from the walls already.

Comments ?

TFBT: more Notes on Troy

It is noteworthy that there should be no mention whatever of the Amazons at this point of the Cata- logue. They are known to Homer as invaders of Phrygia in Priam's young days (iZ. iii. 189). The VI THE ALLIES AND THE WAR 293 omission is, however, entirely consonant with the consistent avoidance of anything mythical in the whole Catalogue ; the poet seems to have set himself to give nothing but dry facts and names, with a studious avoidance of the marvellous and legendary.  (Footnote; At all events they were women soldiers and therefore mythical to Homer.). Walter Leaf Troy. No centaurs or Colchians.   

It is in this that the significance of the Iliad and the Odyssey alike is to be found. Greece was destined to spread not only to the east, but to the west. The conditions of advance in the two directions were different, but both have been recorded in the two poems. (Troy, Walter Troy)


Chryses appeals to Apollo “god of the silver bow , that standest over Chryse and holy Killa and rulest Tenedos” (Iliad 1.37-8)   Leaf suggests this represents a region “a welcome and defensible haven to the dispossed and disinherited “. Adding “In classical times this would beyond a doubt be held to indicate an “amphictyonic” confederacy for political purposes. “ Walter Leaf, Troy

You got to read about the The Great Foray in Troy by Walter Leaf pages 243-252. 

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TFBT: Lunt

The Heroic Athlete in Ancient Greece, DAVID J. LUNT†
Departments of History and Classics and Ancient Mediterranean Studies The Pennsylvania State University

Lunt sees an effort by historic champions to attain heroic honors.

“Plutarch, in his Life of Thesesus, speculated that Theseus’ era had produced a race of beings that far surpassed normal human athletic abilities such as bodily strength and swiftness of foot.”

“Kurke has argued that victory, especially prominent victory in a major festival or contest, brought kudos to the victor. This word, often translated as “praise” or “renown,” carried additional meaning for the ancient Greeks. As understood traditionally, the pos- sessor of kudos enjoyed “special power bestowed by a god that makes a hero invincible.”

“The kudos of victory elevated human athletes to a liminal status between mortals and gods, “

“Nearly two hundred years later, during the fourth-century B.C. campaigns of Alexander of Macedon, an Athenian athlete named Dioxippos defeated a fully armed Macedonian soldier in single combat. The Macedonian, named Koragos, must have had a little too much to drink at the raucous banquet where he challenged Dioxippos, a renowned athlete and a boxing champion in one of the Crown Games.27 On the day of the duel, Koragos arrived decked out in fine armor and weapons. Dioxippos, on the other hand, came naked, his body oiled, wearing a garland, and carrying only a club. Appearing as a victo- rious athlete and armed as Herakles, Dioxippos easily defeated the well-armed Macedonian. The Olympic champion relied on his athleticism, avoiding Koragos’ javelin throw, shat- tering his lance with a blow from the club, and wrestling him to the ground as the Macedonian reached for his sword. In accordance with the myths surrounding Herakles and his manifold duels and contests, Dioxippos treated this encounter as a contest in which he, the Heraklean athlete, vanquished the better armed (and not entirely Greek) enemy.”  I am reminded of the 10,000 singing the Paean (The Victory Song) as they entered battles i the Persian Civil War.  In each case the Persian forces opposing them ran!

“Polydamas, a pankratiast, won a crown at the Olympic games of 408 B.C. His ex- ploits, surely exaggerated, reportedly included pulling the hoof from a struggling bull and stopping a moving chariot by grabbing on and digging his heels into the ground. Further- more, in some sort of agonistic duel, he simultaneously fought and defeated three mem- bers of the elite bodyguard of the Persian King in the court of Darius II. Without exagger- ating the connections to mythic precedent, this one-against-three battle certainly evokes echoes of Herakles’ combat with the triple-bodied Geryon. Both the Persians and the monstrous Geryon represented fantastic, non-Greek forces, and the triplicate enemy sug- gests a convenient parallel.”

“Out of ambitious envy of Achilles,” 

“many respects, the use of poetic meter represented the language of the gods. The Greeks delivered divine communications, such as pronouncements from the Delphic oracle, in dactylic hexam- eter. According to Plato, the Muses spoke to poets in verse, and the poets acted merely as vehicles for conveying the divine words.”

Pelops’ Charioteer: Killas

“ The young Pelops became a lover of the god Poseidon who provided him with a chariot drawn by swift--some say winged--horses. He later travelled across the sea to Greece to compete for the hand of Hippodameia, daughter of King Oinomaos (Oenomaus) of Pisa. The king would slay his daughter's suitors as he overtook them in a chariot race, so Pelops bribed the charioteer Myrtilos to tamper with the axle. Oinomaos was killed as a result and Pelops seized control of the kingdom. “ Aaron Astma

Pausanias {5.10.7} At the very edge lies Kladeos, the river which, in other ways also, the Eleians honor most after the Alpheios. On the left from Zeus are Pelops, Hippodameia, the charioteer of Pelops, horses, and two men, who are apparently grooms of Pelops. Then the pediment narrows again, and in this part of it is represented the Alpheios. The name of the charioteer of Pelops is, according to the account of the Troizenians, Sphairos, but the guide [ex-hēgētēs] at Olympia called him Killas.

Walter Leaf: Homer mentions Killa only as a site of the worship 

of the Sminthian Apollo, without any definite note of locality. We have, therefore, only Strabo's informa- tion upon which to go. He tells us (xiii. 1. 62) that " it is in the territory of Adramy ttium near Thebe. It still retains the name of Killa, and there is a temple of the Killaean Apollo. The river Killaios flows past it from Ida. All this is in the direction of the terri- tory of Antandros." He fiirther adds (63) that ** near the temple of Apollo is the tomb of Killos, a great tumulus. It is said that Killos was a charioteer of Pelops, and was ruler in the country." * 

Leaf recommends Frazer's comments on Pausanias above, but I can’t find them. If Killa was a colonist you would think Delphi would be olved

TFBT: Metopes at Thermon, Temple C, with Kathryn R. Topper

 Just participated in a wide-ranging and fascinating presentation at a CHS Online Open House | Metopes at Thermon, Temple C, with Kathryn R. Topper.  She offered lots of insights and things to think about.  You must watch this presentation. Here is the link.  

Here are a few random notes. 

Topper suggested a correspondence between men hunting animals and men chasing after women.  The iconic visual representation of that being Peleus wrestling down shape-shifting Thetis.  She also showed parallel images of a man chasing a woman with two spears and guy about to stab (penetrate) a boar with two spears.  Someone asked what does it mean when the boar gashed the man in the thigh? Topper explained that it was rejection of the marriage paradigm.  [It is also a euphemism for castration!]

The temple was decorated with a metope of the sisters Chelidon and Aedon. Their story is essentially the story of sisters Procne and Philomela.  Procne was given in marriage to the Thracian King Tereus.  [You know how they are.]  She bore him a son Itys.   Only to discover that Tereus had raped and mutilated her sister Philomela.  The two sisters get revenge by cooking up the boy and feeding him to his father.  Eventually the gods turn everyone into birds and they fly their separate ways.  Topper commented that this is a ritualized returning to the father’s womb.  I am going to have to rethink the cannibalism of Cronus and Thyestes. 

She suggested that the three naked women on one metope were the daughters of Proitos; the Proetides.  Their myth is about the madness that over came them when they were impious towards Hera and refused to participate in the rite of passage that would have made them eligible for marriage.      Personally, I would have assumed that three naked women would represent a triad of goddesses. 

I thought it odd at this point that there was no connection between the mortals on the metopes and the location of the temple. The temple is located in western Greece, north of the Peloponnesian Peninsula and the Gulf of Patras.   Aedon’s story takes place in Colophon in Lydia, far across the Aegean Sea in Asia Minor.  The Proetides myth takes place far to the south in Tiryns, one of three Mycenaean strongholds in the Argolid,   Generally, the mortals associated with a temple represent some local myth and with a temple of this age a foundation myth for the area.

She reminded us that Medusa was once a beautiful maiden seduce by Poseidon in a field of flowers.  We discussed off camera that her monstrous features came about because of a curse by Athena; a late tradition.  I pointed out a similar “bed of roses” in Hera seduction of Zeus on Mount Ida and that the head of the monstrous Medusa on slide 20 was actually the Aegis.  After Perseus cut off Medusa head and turned several enemies into stone, Athena attached the head to her tasseled breastplate called the Aegis.

Jack asked if Medusa ever got her revenge on Perseus.  Topper answered no.  But, as I thought about, not only did neither of her sons; Chrysaor and Pegasus avenge her, but most of her descendants were actually slain by Perseus’ descendants.  Most famously Heracles slew her grandson Geryon. 

As to the Perseides killing the brood of Echidna (Medusa’s granddaughter); there is no crime (sin) in killing strangers or monsters.  The Furies would only care if you kill a family member.  Which would suggest that they should have been all over the Procne and Philomela story like they were in the case of Atreus and Thyestes.  It strikes me this is why the gods turn them all into birds.  The gods can’t deny the Furies their prerogatives of retching revenge on the family, but they can turn them into birds before the “Kindly Ones” arrive therebye stopping the cycle of violence the house of Atreus was so famous for.  

Topper also suggested that what started the cycle of violence in the Chelidon and Aedon/ Procne and Philomela story was Procne violating the marriage paradigm by inviting her younger sister to come live with her and her husband.  (Hmm, that sounds like a really bad idea in the first place.)  By violating the marriage paradigm, they become young girls in the chorus of again, animal-like feral women, maenads, the Theban bacchantes on Mt Cithaeron who ribbed their children limb-from-limb..