tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post8738823749514685914..comments2023-09-28T07:32:28.168-08:00Comments on Bill's Greek Mythology: TFBT: Saving the Drown Toddler Glaucus Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-45857581011217957972014-11-07T10:08:14.953-09:002014-11-07T10:08:14.953-09:00Maya M,
Good stuff on the centaurs! I remember r...Maya M,<br /><br />Good stuff on the centaurs! I remember reading somewhere that as time progressed depictions of the Gigantomachy and Centauromachy began to represent more and more in the minds of the Greeks the war against "Barabarians". Initially those battles represent the gods and heroes respectively defeating chaos and ordering the world. Once that's done you've got to defeat those rowdy Persians.<br /><br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-31057459472256167272014-11-06T03:36:53.821-09:002014-11-06T03:36:53.821-09:00I have just found something corroborating our disc...I have just found something corroborating our discussion about the Centaurs - by J.N. Bremmer in Laura Feldt (Ed.), Wilderness in Mythology and Religion:<br /><br />"...The connections of the Centaurs with the Satyrs were stressed to an increasing extent from the sixth century onwards. However, the satyrs survived, so to speak, in mythology, because one could perhaps meet them in Dionysiac worship, and of course one could see them in the theatre.<br />As a result of Heracles' fight against the Centaurs, so Apollodorus notes in his somewhat garbled version, they fled in all directions... We witness here a theme that has not received any attention in recent discussions. Yet, Homer already states that Peirithoos, the king of the Lapiths, chased his enemies away from Mount Pelion... Other narratives relate a more sombre picture. Already around 470 BC, Pindar (3.1 - 3) wishes that Cheiron... the 'wild beast', was still alive. Pholos had died immediately after having inadvertently dropped one of Heracles' poisoned arrows on his foot in the aftermath of the latter's fight against the Centaurs, and Nessos was killed by Heracles. As Euripides simply states, 'the mountain-dwelling tribe of fierce Centaurs he laid low, killing them with his winged shafts'.<br />It is clear from these notices that already from the early Archaic Age onwards the Centaurs were continually marginalised. First, they were..."<br /><br />(A lacuna follows due to damage of 2 pages of text or, more precisely, to the Google Books' protective measures against folks like me who want to read everything without payment.)<br /><br />"...Centaurs were no longer perceived as more or less human opponents but more and more as monsters that had to be eradicated, even the more civilised ones. The annihilation of the Centaurs shows that, in the rationalising fifth century BC, the ideas of the Greeks about their mountains had considerably changed. They may have remained dangerous territory, but the mountains were no longer inhabited by creatures symbolising their 'wild' nature."<br /><br />(BTW, under your influence I added to my manuscript explicitly that the creation of the "golden" generation of humans plus the centaurs was ordered by Cronus.)Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-20977951386519357002014-10-17T22:13:26.438-08:002014-10-17T22:13:26.438-08:00We are not allies of the Olympians. We are their s...We are not allies of the Olympians. We are their slaves, like the Messenians to the Spartans. My Zeus coins the words for "slave" and "slavery", having the humans in mind. We must feed the gods by sacrificing, or else will be destroyed like the Silver generation.<br />Some monsters do become allies of the gods: Cerberus, Pegassus, the sea monsters sent to eat humans. Most, however, are too dull (or too proud?) to strike a life-saving deal. I guess that if Geryon had sacrificed some of his famous cows now and then, he would have enjoyed a long life.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-62915512076502448142014-10-17T19:26:07.357-08:002014-10-17T19:26:07.357-08:00Maya,
Can you imagine, if the Olympians had chose...Maya,<br /><br />Can you imagine, if the Olympians had chosen the monsters as allies rather then men? BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-43769769370446248702014-10-17T06:12:58.310-08:002014-10-17T06:12:58.310-08:00Yes, like the above mentioned Ino/Leucothea and he...Yes, like the above mentioned Ino/Leucothea and her son. I wonder, were Ino and Melicertes really "granted" immortality, or they simply failed to die, and Nereus had to find them some job. It seems that the boy did not grow anymore after his "first life" ended.<br /><br />It is nice of Hesiod's Zeus to pity Typhon, but at the same time he laughs while planning evil against humans (Works & Days 54-60). I think we have the right to be offended for being regarded as less valuable than some embodiment of chaos.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-70710716144314741042014-10-17T01:29:01.332-08:002014-10-17T01:29:01.332-08:00Maya, like many mortals turned god are saviors upo...Maya, like many mortals turned god are saviors upon the sea. Their wives (the daughters of Leucippicus) were also deified. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-21924821685293267462014-10-16T22:47:15.121-08:002014-10-16T22:47:15.121-08:00How do we know when gods start worrying about the ...How do we know when gods start worrying about the Gigantomachy? I think we must look for special efforts to conceive or bring from abroad important individuals. So it depends on which family tree you are tracing. E.g. from Aeacus to Achilles, there are only 3 generations. However, from Cadmus to Polyneices, there are 6 (Cadmus - Polydorus - Labdacus - Laius - Oedipus - Polyneices), and from Lyncaeus to Heracles, there are 8. If we presume that Zeus' procreating heroes is due only to his care about the coming Gigantomachy (rather than to the irresistible urge of a serial rapist), we must count from Io. As you mentioned, this means whole 13 generations, with Zeus intervening twice more and Poseidon once:<br />http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Lynceus.html<br />It is true that most important heroes appear close to the end of the Heroic Age, but I doubt that this is wish and plan of Zeus. After all, only several of them are really used in the Gigantomachy (according to the dominant version - only one, Heracles).<br />Typhon is indeed described in terms hinting at secret admiration. And actually was there any other reason for making him male? Other bad Greek monsters are female and so is his possible prototype Tiamat.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-80535540051598697202014-10-16T22:19:45.538-08:002014-10-16T22:19:45.538-08:00About the Dioscuri: They were patron gods of Spart...About the Dioscuri: They were patron gods of Sparta, and most of what we have from ancient Greece is from Athens (Sparta's arch-enemy). I fear that this could distort the mythology around these gods in ways we cannot even guess.<br />In some versions of the myth, both Castor and Polydeuces are immortal sons of Zeus. For some reason, however, Greeks were fond of twin pairs with mixed (mortal-divine) paternity. So emerged the versions where the Dioscuri have different fathers, and Polydeuces shows great brother's love to Castor (to counter-weight the opposite stories of the sons of Oedipus and Aeacus). Again, the pattern is here: if you love your human brother, you sacrifice part of your immortality.<br />My Zeus is father of both twins but tries to renounce Castor after his injury because doesn't want another disabled person on Olympus after the great troubles with Asclepius.<br />I've wondered about the mythological function of the Dioscuri. It seems to have been done totally subordinate to that of Helen. Her brothers exist to rescue her from Theseus. However, they must later be removed, in order not to be heirs to Tyndareus' throne. (Gods apparently fear that Menelaus would have the common sense not to start a world war just over the Most Beautiful Woman; she must as well be <i>epicleros</i> holding the keys to his throne.) Homer removes the brothers by killing and burying them, later mythographers are more merciful.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-91235627011317060842014-10-16T15:56:24.018-08:002014-10-16T15:56:24.018-08:00Maya, as to keeping heroes handy, the Olympians kn...Maya, as to keeping heroes handy, the Olympians knew the date of the Gigantomachy. Priam was put on the throne by Heracles and doomed by Achilles. The bulk ofthe demigods lived in a two- generation Age of Heroes. As for sympathy for Typhon, I think he is a good example of the gods mixed feelings. Hera reast feed half the brood of Echidna. They liked her. Cerecurus served Hades, the Sphinx hera, Pegasus carried Zeus' thunderbolts. The monsters represented an a,ternative to the demigods. Did not Zeus weep forthe Death of Sarpedon, which he planned? In theend the demigods and the monsters had to go or the world would be plunged back into chaos. (Some how I got the impression thst several of the goddesses thought Big-T was hot!)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-27384689111985263502014-10-16T15:44:58.528-08:002014-10-16T15:44:58.528-08:00Maya, I like that Aeacus-deucalion connection. I...Maya, I like that Aeacus-deucalion connection. I will have to think on that. As to choicing life commending the choser to mortality: how does that apply to "Polydeuces who chose life forCastor, who had cherished in battle" Nemean 10:59 althoughmythographers come up with lame stories about them alternating days in H/H myth shows the Divine Twins in one anothers company all the time. Sometime with their sisterHelen.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-31760341514503828862014-10-16T15:29:58.236-08:002014-10-16T15:29:58.236-08:00Maya, I think I spoke elsewhere of Apollo and the...Maya, I think I spoke elsewhere of Apollo and the Eumenides. The shock troops of Fate didn't seem too imtimidated byApollo and his little golden bow and arrow. Nordid they seem concerned when Athena mentioned she kept the keys her father's armory. When Zeus wakes up Mt Ida he sends Iris with an order to remove homself from the battlefield. She has to remind him whose side the erinyes will beon should the two brothers come to blows. They were tiugh!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-653108552209445662014-10-16T06:04:07.597-08:002014-10-16T06:04:07.597-08:00As for Apollo: Have you paid attention to the open...As for Apollo: Have you paid attention to the opening monologue of the Eumenides? The play is about power and prerogatives taken away from the (female) Erinyes, and it begins with a tale of the succession of Delphi deities, all females until the last and current one, Apollo. We are told that transitions of power were voluntary. You can believe it if you like :-).<br />I think your theory about Delphi is good. And you are right that Apollo is such a threat that any gain from having him hardly justifies the risk. Lucian's Zeus explicitly complains that Apollo receives more worship. <br />Apollo, Dionysus and Heracles have in common the nasty tendency to mutilate people in the most barbaric way imaginable (Apollo - Marsyas, Dionysus - Pentheus and Heracles - the Minyan envoys; if I were Creon, I would keep my daughters a mile away from such a hero and express my gratitude in another way). Dionysus and Heracles actually cannot do anything constructive. You need them only when you have someone to be killed or something to be destroyed. They could seize the power from Zeus but they could not serve as supreme gods, except for a short time in an apocalyptic or cyclic religion, to prepare the current world's destruction. So of the three sons hated by Hera, Apollo is the only one who also has some ability for civic life. Nevertheless, it is awkward to have a plague deity elevated to the supreme god's position, and I guess this is why everyone preferred to keep good old Zeus. (I also don't think Achilles would make a good ruler of the Cosmos, or actually of anything. Maybe the reason why Zeus was warned of the succession prophesy was the realization that, while he sucks as a ruler, his son would suck even more.)Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-29543219609891744852014-10-16T05:39:06.566-08:002014-10-16T05:39:06.566-08:00About Aeacus: He is indeed a saint in comparison t...About Aeacus: He is indeed a saint in comparison to other Greek mythological figures, e.g. his son Peleus or half-brother Minos (also described as virtuous; we have commented on Peleus, Minos' "virtue" hardly needs commenting). However, Aeacus makes a mess of his family life. He fathers a child from the Nereis Psamathe. Some sources say he raped her; my opinion is that it was consensual - she could retaliate but chose not to. Anyway, Aeacus brought together sons from 2 mothers and did a poor parenting job, effectively setting a stage for fratricide.<br />Let's include Aeacus. He is actually a double of Deucalion. Both are important but obscure figures. Both find themselves alone, ask Zeus to give them fellow humans and he grants their wish in a supernatural manner. Both, together with their Semitic counterpart Noah, have a connection with wine (in the name of Deucalion, and in the former name of Aeacus' island - Oenopia). Both are connected with Phthia. We do not know why Zeus spared Deucalion and granted him a wish. (Well, he built an arc, but it could be easily submerged.) Deucalion's prototype Atrahasis was made immortal after surviving the flood. Deucalion could wish immortality but he used his wish to populate the Earth with humans. So his wish for a human population became a commitment to mortality. <br />Aeacus' story is a small-scale adaptation of the creation of human race, or of its demise and re-creation, if we take the variant with Hera and the plague. Otherwise, Aeacus' behavior makes no sense. Any human finding himself alone on an island would not ask his divine daddy to give him human company engineered on invertebrates. Instead, he would go to the nearest overpopulated polis and announce, "I am founding a colony! Free land, good climate, no infrastructure yet! Who comes?" Or, if the island's population had been destroyed by a plague, the survivor would just pack, leave and seek a new home elsewhere.<br />If Hera sent a plague to punish Aeacus, why did everybody die except him? Possibly he was quasi-immortal at the time and became mortal after his wish - again, to wish mortal company means to commit yourself to mortality. So Aeacus (and possibly Deucalion) was made harmless based on his love of humans. Zeus arranged this, and in Aeacus' case, Hera may have helped him.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-83849704573200858432014-10-16T04:33:52.686-08:002014-10-16T04:33:52.686-08:00Indeed, the gods needed a hero or two for the Giga...Indeed, the gods needed a hero or two for the Gigantomachy. And if they did not know beforehand the precise time of the Gigantomachy, they had to keep at least one suitable hero in every generation. This can explain bringing back the exiles Lyncaeus and Cadmus, as well as the births of Perseus, Theseus, Pirithous and Heracles. However, those same heroes were also a threat, so Zeus apparently didn't feel comfortable. So he tried to reach an optimal compromise by moves in opposite directions, e.g. by saving Lyncaeus while letting his brothers die. Possibly Hera realized the hero-threat very well and was an expert geneticist but kept underestimating the threat from the giants.<br />I admit I cannot make any sense of Typhon's story, so I do not try. He is of course the fault of women, that baneful tribe, be it Hera or Grandma Gaea, your choice, doesn't matter :-). But why is Hesiod's Zeus, this archetype of a psychopath, "saddened" while disposing of Typhon's remains? When I read such a thing, I surrender.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-57892940048208735712014-10-15T18:09:30.195-08:002014-10-15T18:09:30.195-08:00Maya,
You are right. That whole Zagreus as hei...<br />Maya, <br /><br /> You are right. That whole Zagreus as heir story; ripped apart and eaten by the Titans, is so “out there” totally not mainstream and reeks of a philosopher using mythology to his own end. This a orphic myth right? <br />So the four threats to Olympuis you proposed we analysis are ;<br />1) Leto & Apollo;<br />2) Io (& Epaphus?);<br />3) Semele & Dionysus;<br />4) Alcmene & Heracles.<br />5) you excluded Aegina & Aeacus<br /><br />Let’s start by recalling that the Giants would have won, except for that demi-god Heracles. A modern author or two points out that Dionysus is a demi-god and relief sculpture of the Gigantomachy often included Achilles, Bootes, and the Discouri. The bottom line here is that, demi-gods are the most powerful class of beings and since humanity had so interbreed with the gods; we are all a threat. <br /><br />The gods knew they needed a hero (or two). Io was the ancestress of Heracles (per Prometheus), Heracles is a threat so Hera persecutes him because she can’t help herself. <br /><br />The gods knew they needed a hero or two so Zeus built Heracles with three days in the sack with a Theban princess. Zeus built <br /><br />Zagreus/Dionysus, by bagging his own daughter and reinforcing the divine genes, swallowing the fetus and then reinforcing the divine genes by bedding another Theban princess to produce Dionysus. What chance did Seleme have of surviving the birth of that sort of child? I take it as a given that we agree the Theban royal were often gods in their own right. <br /><br />I don’t think you can dismiss Aeacus. He was the “holiest” greek however lived. He often dined with the gods and I get the feeling the Fates were using him to design some optional alternative reality. <br /><br />As to Hera harassing all these people. Keep in mind that it was the law of the gods that they couldn’t interfere with one aonther’s desires. She is the mother of Typhon; who knows which side she is on, but bottom-line she will do what ever to maintain power.<br /><br />Finally Apollo; maybe Zeus needed Delphi and the only way he could yank it away from the Matriarchal goddesses was with Apollo killing their Champion Python? I don’t know what Zeus’ motives are. Clearly Apollo was the greatest threat to the throne. <br /><br />What do you think?<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-81552350136074833822014-10-15T12:56:52.761-08:002014-10-15T12:56:52.761-08:00Hera, like Zeus, has a talent for forming strange ...Hera, like Zeus, has a talent for forming strange and effective alliances free of squeamishness. Zeus' victory and rule is based on his alliance with six monstrous uncles (the Cyclopes and the Hundred-Handers). Hera's victory over Zagreus is based on her alliance with her (six?) uncles, the Titans. This move is a total win. Zeus gets rid of the dangerous toddler, at least for some time, and obtains a wonderful excuse to destroy the Titans.<br />Later, Hera sends monsters against Heracles. This is win-win, because Olympians seem to dislike both the monsters and Heracles. Perhaps there was secret hope that Heracles would die in a final embrace with the last monster.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-70629950378042367182014-10-15T12:39:23.760-08:002014-10-15T12:39:23.760-08:00Hera, I continue to believe, is a red herring. Whe...Hera, I continue to believe, is a red herring. When she is dragged into myth, expect some distraction. It is often stated that Heracles is a "favorite son" of Zeus. What we know, however, is that Zeus never tried to protect his son from the murderous attempts of Hera, except in one case, when the giants had their D-day and only Heracles could defeat them. In Euripides, Heracles blames Zeus along with Hera for his misfortune. <br />Io is traditionally described as persecuted by Hera. However, sources differ about who turned her into cow - Hera or Zeus himself; this is already a clue to the interchangeability of wife and husband in the "bad jealous Hera" stories. In the Prometheus Bound, everyone blames Zeus more than Hera for the plight of Io, and in the Suppliants, the reason why the Danaids bring trouble to themselves and their hosts is that they fail to grasp the role of Zeus in Io's misfortune. <br />Io could also show us what Hera and/or Zeus really wanted by banning "all the land" from allowing Leto give birth. Maybe the idea was to do what was successfully done with Io - to chase her to some remote place not fully qualifying as "land" where her son would be mortal and bring no trouble to Olympus, except possibly by his returning descendants. It seems that after giving birth, Leto was allowed to return to Olympus with her children only after a pledge that she would disarm her son. The hymn to Apollo begins with the "once and always" scene of disarming (however, in some versions, Leto failed to disarm Apollo at least once, and he disarmed his Father by shooting the personnel of his industrial-military complex).<br />So we see that, while Zeus and Hera had their quarrels, and she may have tried a coup once or twice, they were generally a perfect husband-and-wife team. Or, if you prefer, a good cop - bad cop team, with Hera as the bad cop.<br />Of course the question remains why Zeus conceived all these troublesome sons in the first place. There are some attempts to whitewash him. E.g. Nonnus says that Zeus conceived Dionysus to help the suffering mankind (i.e. the supreme God sent his Son to be mankind's Savior and to show humans the right path by dismembering some of them). Or some say that Zeus selected Alcmene to conceive a son with rare qualities. However, this doesn't fit. Heracles was planned by Zeus to be a king, and he is absolutely unfit for this. His fitness as action hero was a serendipity. I think the proper explanation for these sons' conception is the most simple one, namely, that Zeus was unable to properly control himself and his own procreative power.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-31041767207803512202014-10-15T12:14:31.209-08:002014-10-15T12:14:31.209-08:00I think you are quite right that Dionysus bringing...I think you are quite right that Dionysus bringing his zombie mom and mortal bride to Olympus was hardly the will of Zeus. I have long wondered what exactly about Dionysus is the will of Zeus. You know that some source said that the first incarnation of Dionysus (Zagreus) was scheduled by Zeus to be his heir - and my opinion is that resignation is very, very unlike Zeus. However, maybe this child was "meant by destiny" to be Zeus' heir.<br />You once pointed out that Hera's "jealousy" is actually just fear that someone else's son could displace her invaluable Ares - she does no harm to mothers of girls, and not even to those of boys after the boy is born. I tried to sort out the mother-son pairs persecuted by Hera. I excluded Aegina & Aeacus, because they were targeted according to only one source, and not the most reliable in the world (Hyginus). Lamia is obscure; and besides, here the children were killed and we have no idea what they would have become. So, who remains?<br />1) Leto & Apollo;<br />2) Io (& Epaphus?);<br />3) Semele & Dionysus;<br />4) Alcmene & Heracles.<br />Because Io was successfully chased away, Epaphus was born at a safe distance, far from the site that could potentially empower him. What is the common denominator for the other three? They all were or became immortal, even though two were born by mortal mothers, and they all seem to have been a grave threat to Zeus' rule.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-25919870175922474532014-10-11T07:11:37.023-08:002014-10-11T07:11:37.023-08:00Maya,
To your list of divine wedding ceremonies ...Maya, <br /><br />To your list of divine wedding ceremonies I think you can add Dionysus and his mortal wife (and cousin) Adriane. (Hope I spelled that right.) Dionysus pretty much stormed Olympus with dead mother and mortal wife in tow. I don't think that was the will of Zeus. But, I must agree that Hebe and Harmonia's weddings were a hostage exchange and nothing more.<br /><br />As to reading the Odyssey, I agree Odysseus is dispicable. But, along with all the bad in the world there is a lot of good. Nausicca and her mother Arete are incredible people. Ino is a wonderful (Theban) goddess. You should not let Laertes' son deprive them from your acquaintance.<br /><br />Yes, Hector's death was Achilles' destiny, no one else could have slain him. Patroclus could not have stolen his buddy's glory even if he wanted to. Oh, Patroclus was one of three comrades of Achilles who accidently slew a relative. Peleus had quite the army of renegades that he sent with Achilles.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-86866391988062409852014-10-11T02:08:18.922-08:002014-10-11T02:08:18.922-08:00I thought a little more about Hebe.
She not only b...I thought a little more about Hebe.<br />She not only becomes Heracles' consort, she has a wedding party, mentioned by two or three sources and depicted in artworks.<br />There are, to my knowledge, only three divinities for whom a marriage feast is described. All three are females married to fulfill not their will but the will of Zeus. And all three are given to males of mortal origin.<br />The first one is Harmonia. I have tried hard to find out what happened to her. It seems that she and her husband went to the Isles of the Blessed, together with the others of their generation. Hence, her 100% Olympian descent and her Olympian citizenship by birth were made void. Moreover, many sources say that she was turned into a snake.<br />The second divine bride is of course Thetis.<br />So Hebe in being made Heracles' wife was most likely considered a mere tool to achieve a purpose of Zeus, like the two brides before her. She was lucky, however. We do not hear of any disaster resulting from her marriage.<br />(To be precise, the <i>Prometheus Bound</i> mentions the protagonists's wedding. But this is a single source, and he is a Titan. Titans have better family values. My Zeus argues with Hera that the very institution of marriage is an outdated relic from the Titans' rule.)Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-18919678847240727392014-10-09T04:07:50.973-08:002014-10-09T04:07:50.973-08:00Maya,
I just mentioned to my wife, just now, that ...Maya,<br />I just mentioned to my wife, just now, that Athena stirred the Odyssean pot when she did because Telemachus was coming of age.<br /><br />That came up because we went to see, "Maze Runner" Dont repeat our mistake. Any movie with a "To be continued" ending, sucks by definitionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-20575797006194327682014-10-08T13:09:15.726-08:002014-10-08T13:09:15.726-08:00It seems that Odysseus' comrades didn't li...It seems that Odysseus' comrades didn't like him much but knew he was necessary to bring about the happy (for them) end at Troy.<br />I read somewhere that in another version of the Achilles' story, his <i>menis</i> was directed not against Agamemnon but against Odysseus, because Achilles wanted the war to be won by strength and courage only, not by cunning.<br />Other stories also need a nasty person to bring about a happy end. E.g. my Apollo, or Tolkien's Sméagol, or Loki. Indeed, Loki brought about a lot of happy ends for the Aesir, but we know that a bill for these happy ends is to come, interest included.<br />The problem with these characters is that, with the exception of Sméagol, they haven't the decency to disappear after bringing the happy end.<br />Actually, Odysseus was quite OK on Calypso's island. Of course, he was held against his will and always longing for Penelope... though my gut feeling is that, if a male engages in sexual acts, he cannot be wholly unwilling.<br />Then, Athena stirs the pot. She has a vital role in the Heroic Age Collapse, though nobody reveals her motivation; and now she apparently remembers that Ithaca has too many living men and it is high time to bring Odysseus home to correct this.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-25836848009265917212014-10-08T12:12:14.786-08:002014-10-08T12:12:14.786-08:00You are right that we cannot be sure in anything O...You are right that we cannot be sure in anything Odysseus says. For him, lying is a basic life function. He is the type of person who can deceive a polygraph.<br />This said, it is a fact that Poseidon is angry at him.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-75449203185481944542014-10-07T05:44:17.143-08:002014-10-07T05:44:17.143-08:00Divine genes presumably had an impact on human app...Divine genes presumably had an impact on human appearance and abilities. However, I think you are quick to judge that the Bronze Age generation would be non-viable without them. Remember what efforts it takes to exterminate this generation: first Pandora's jar, then the flood.<br />The stones are of course meaningless in my interpretation, I doubt how meaningful they are in the original myth. They seem pure distraction: cover your heads and throw objects noisily in order not to see or hear what exactly happens behind your backs. Much like the counting of a patient after anaesthesia is applied.<br />Theoi.com also allocates the old Titans to world directions, but Iapetus is the West.<br />As for my centaurs... it would be best to leave them out, but Chiron has an important role in the plot. He is associated with Cronus, like the "Golden Age" humans. The rest of centaurs of course also go there. I cannot afford to have Cronus metamorphosed into horse and then transmitting horse traits to his son, or Ixion enjoying an intercourse with some humanoid cloud. Science fiction has its rules: no tales of this sort, everybody is in this world as a result of evolution or engineering. <br />Cronus and Zeus are rulers, so they cannot be scientists. I don't think one person can be successful in both activities, and anyway nothing in myth suggests that either ruler has technical knowledge. They just tell their subordinates, the real scientists, to create this or that and fund the project. Creation of a centaur or a human, of course, is a magnificent task which must be government-sponsored. You cannot do it like Frankenstein, secretly in a basement. (Though I am much indebted to Frankenstein, of course.)<br />For the creation of centaurs and golden humans, I picked those Titans who look more intellectual. For the creation of later humans, the myth fixes the mad scientists: Prometheus, Athena & Hephaestus.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-3193304536523363142014-10-06T15:28:06.795-08:002014-10-06T15:28:06.795-08:00Maya,
Once again you bring up lots to look at. I...Maya,<br /><br />Once again you bring up lots to look at. I like your note on the sex-skew of the monstrous races. As to Polyphemus and his neighbors; didn't Odysseus just make that all up to explain the disappearance of his crew and to entertain his hosts at dinner parties?<br /><br />Thanks for the suggestion. I'll work up http://shortstories-bill.blogspot.com/2012/12/tfbt-proper-pray-and-personal.html<br /> and supplementing it with related material from other posts, e.g. about Chryses and Dolon botching it, <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.com