tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post8249746751694280680..comments2023-09-28T07:32:28.168-08:00Comments on Bill's Greek Mythology: TFBT: Pindar’s Victory Songs Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-59432950201783410352014-06-19T12:19:46.136-08:002014-06-19T12:19:46.136-08:00Actually, it is somewhat inaccurate. Because the c...Actually, it is somewhat inaccurate. Because the corn lily having this effect is a New World species. See the photo of the cyclopic lamb here:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopamine<br />Old World corn lilies, as far as I know, contain little cyclopamine. So, while not the best spices for your salad, they could hardly cause cyclopia. But too pedantic adherence to the facts harms science fiction.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-38676872335925202722014-06-17T15:30:43.770-08:002014-06-17T15:30:43.770-08:00Maya, You are funny corn lily caused the "go...Maya, You are funny corn lily caused the "good looks" of the Cyclops. hahaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-63133564170814024912014-06-16T00:29:21.074-08:002014-06-16T00:29:21.074-08:00Maybe this is Pindar's explanation. Unfortunat...Maybe this is Pindar's explanation. Unfortunately, all information we can directly squeeze from his Odes is that he doesn't want to warship a jerk :-).<br />My Gaia cannot have this role. She is powerless and, besides, hates Prometheus ever since he, in the line of his duty, finds out that her habit to add corn lily to her salad has caused the malformation of the Cyclopes.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-82184625966439183182014-06-15T20:14:47.451-08:002014-06-15T20:14:47.451-08:00Maya,
Isn't it amazing how insistently Gaia op...Maya,<br />Isn't it amazing how insistently Gaia opposed the ruling regime (that she helped install)? I think zeus and gaea cut a deal, called a truce after the Typhonomacy to get Prometheus and the Titans released. Thats my new proverb, even "immortal Zeus released the Titans" Pythia 4.294<br /><br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-60045798150653911372014-06-15T12:43:23.555-08:002014-06-15T12:43:23.555-08:00This registration is too much a headache for me :(...This registration is too much a headache for me :(.<br />From the abstract, it seems that Lefkowitz tries to portray the predatory feature of these goddesses as entirely divine, rather than female.<br />However, from what I know about the ancient Greek society and culture, the Greek males were quite afraid of females. They locked women inside homes, forced them to tie their hair and to cover from neck to feet, married them off as soon as they grew out of childhood. Quite like today's Muslims. Middle-aged men often preferred as sexual partners younger males to females. It seems to me that the Greeks also thought that women, if left free, would destroy the society.<br />The male gods, though immortal, ageless and powerful, also feared their females. The two predecessors of Zeus were toppled by their consorts. Zeus kept his throne by controlling (swallowing) the mother rather than the child. Still, he didn't dare to tell Demeter that he had decided to marry their daughter off to Hades.<br />It seems to me that (male) Greeks projected on goddesses their ideas of female dangers.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-56476153464822564842014-06-12T15:35:49.982-08:002014-06-12T15:35:49.982-08:00Maya,
What is your take on the "Predatory&qu...Maya,<br /><br />What is your take on the "Predatory" Goddesses” as Mary R. Lefkowitz calls them? http://www.jstor.org/stable/3182040 (If you don't have institutional access to JSTOR they will give you access as an independent researcher.) Lefkowitz talks about the Eos, Calypso and Aphrodite's treatment of young male lovers. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-11673059597518140942014-06-11T12:20:20.643-08:002014-06-11T12:20:20.643-08:00Let's examine the most important "loves&q...Let's examine the most important "loves" of Zeus. First, the goddesses:<br />Metis - rape followed by "murder";<br />Themis - likely consensual, because she remained his supporter afterwards. (My Zeus brings Themis to the Council of the Twelve Olympians whenever he has to enforce a difficult decision; being more loyal to him than any Olympian, and more intelligent and eloquent than most of them, Themis "sells" his decisions to the Council. So a superstition originated that the number 13 brings misfortune.)<br />Dione (if we accept her as Aphrodite's mother) - likely rape; it is difficult to imagine that any sister of Metis would willingly lay with Zeus; remember the prayer of the Chorus to the Moirae in the <i>Prometheus Bound</i>.<br />Eurynome - same as above; besides, she leaves Olympus.<br />Demeter - likely consensual (she seems too mighty to be raped), but she was deeply hurt and disappointed (wishes Persephone never to make sex).<br />Mnemosyne - no data;<br />Asteria - Zeus first imprisons her husband, then attempts to rape her; she flees and commits "suicide"; Zeus gives honors to her daughter in a probable "out of court settlement";<br />Leto - strong indirect evidence of rape (sister of Asteria, flees Olympus in an apparent attempt to save her babies from their father);<br />Hera - consensual accordint to the <i>Iliad</i>, but other sources say deceit and rape (the cuckoo story);<br />Maia - strong indirect evidence of rape (her father is punished by Zeus, she lives hidden in a cave);<br />Electra sister of Maia - same as above; her son Iasion was killed by his father;<br />Persephone (if we accept her as mother of Zagreus) - rape: she was his daughter and, as you wrote earlier, she had no choice and "no" was not an option.<br /><br />Some of the mortal "lovers":<br />Aegina - kidnapped and raped;<br />Europa - same as above;<br />Io - perpetually tortured for months or years until she submits "voluntarily";<br />Sinope - outwits Zeus and so avoids rape;<br />Pyrrha and the daughters of Deukalion - do you think any of them would wish sex with Zeus? Apparently rape, maybe for revenge;<br />Dia - no data;<br />Alcmene, Antiope, Danae, Leda - deceived, none of them ever consented to lay with Zeus;<br />Semele - consensual sex, then killed while pregnant;<br />The Danaids - wished to lay with Zeus, but he stayed far from them. One of them finally accepted Poseidon as a surrogate. Why didn't he come to them when they prayed to be "rescued" the way Io was? One starts to think that Zeus does not enjoy consensual sex!<br />Thaleia - rape followed by suicide.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-9215880725963365192014-06-11T11:39:00.509-08:002014-06-11T11:39:00.509-08:00Following the same logic, I had made Thetis rant a...Following the same logic, I had made Thetis rant about why doesn't Zeus satisfy himself with all those females who make a queue in front of him and are a disgrace to womanhood.<br />However, when I sought evidence of such females, I found next to none, so I omitted the lines.<br />Of course, authors claim that maidens wanted very much to lay with such an excellent alpha male but were afraid of Hera. The anger of Hera seems to be a convenient excuse for women to avoid Zeus whenever possible. Otherwise, they could be charged with rebellion (if immortal) or impiety (if mortal). Most myths including Hera are equally (or more) logical without her. She is a sort of red herring in Greek mythology. Besides, Zeus committed his worst atrocities to women (Metis and Asteria) before marrying Hera.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-6883483874089676302014-06-10T09:06:16.239-08:002014-06-10T09:06:16.239-08:00Maya,
I love the phrase "the virgin warrior ...Maya,<br /><br />I love the phrase "the virgin warrior and geek goddess Athena." Your analysis of Dionysius' anger "they knew his mother had been a slut, and he knew they knew." is right on. <br /><br />But do you really think that Semele was Zeus' only willing lover? I'll bet there were all sorts of nymph-groupies trying to get his attention, bed and throne. Aphrodite might be mighty, but Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. <br /><br />Bill<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-60341807448827815432014-06-09T09:56:36.744-08:002014-06-09T09:56:36.744-08:00I also mentioned (and was surprised by) the Semele...I also mentioned (and was surprised by) the Semele - Athena connection by Pindar, in the Semele-Thyone page at Theoi.com. There was also a quote from Nonnus that, after her apotheosis, Semele "had converse with Athena". I asked myself, what on Earth could they converse about, what subjects could they have in common? On one side, the virgin warrior and geek goddess Athena. On the other side, the lady with the dubious distinction to be the only ever woman, mortal or immortal, for whom we know for sure that she voluntarily made sex with Zeus. (Because a rape victim would hardly ask her rapist to appear before her in full glory.)<br />I think goddesses, particularly virgin goddesses, despised Semele, as her mortal relations did. It is funny to me that some scholars, commenting Euripides' <i>Bacchae</i>, write that the Thebans should have done this or that to avoid the hostility of Dionysus. However had they behaved, they would have been ruined. Because the true reason for Dionysus' anger was not something the Thebans did or didn't do, but the fact that they knew his mother had been a slut, and he knew they knew.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.com