tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post1862437130962981542..comments2023-09-28T07:32:28.168-08:00Comments on Bill's Greek Mythology: TFBT: Doubly Odd Heracles Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-26699917172731949082014-09-14T09:05:16.986-08:002014-09-14T09:05:16.986-08:00Maya,
It amazes me how much i think i know until i...Maya,<br />It amazes me how much i think i know until i have to produce a reference. Joan V O'Brien in The Transformation of Hera suggests that Hera's first husband was a Samian River god named Iambrasas.<br /><br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-9912756795368739712014-09-13T23:31:15.753-08:002014-09-13T23:31:15.753-08:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplu_(deity)
He is id...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplu_(deity)<br />He is identified with Nergal, who was also a solar deity, like Apollo. In his role as plague god, Nergal was called Erra; under this name, he led the seven demons to destroy humanity, possibly giving the idea of the Seven would-be destroyers of Thebes. The Hurrians apparently did not dare to call any of his existing names and epithets, so they listed him just as Aplu, "son of", meaning son of Enlil. Another similarity to Apollo - both are sons of the supreme god.<br /><br />It is interesting to me that, when Chryses asks Apollo to punish the Greeks, he addresses the god as Apollo Smintheus, "Mouse Apollo". There was an episode in the Bible where the Philistines were punished with a disease resembling bubonic plague, and to be spared, they (among other things) made an offer of buboes and mice made of gold. I wonder, were the mice included just as "generic" pests, or these ancient people knew the role of rodents as plague reservoirs? True plague at that time was unknown in Europe, but already endemic in the Fertile Crescent - enough to earn its god a seat in the pantheon.<br />My Apollo, among all gods, has the best knowledge of infectious diseases, because he has observed and studied them in cattle and other domestic animals ever since the domestication (gods themselves have natural immunity against pathogens). After the "theft" of fire, Apollo is ordered by Zeus to collect the germs for Pandora's jar.<br /><br />I had never heard about Sangrius!Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-3222917191762996692014-09-13T19:54:38.913-08:002014-09-13T19:54:38.913-08:00Aeschylus was almost stoned to death by an angry m...Aeschylus was almost stoned to death by an angry mob for revealing the secrets of the Mysteries.<br /><br />I hadnti heard about the Hurrian plagye god Aplu. Apollo was from that part of the world origionally, right<br /><br />I have a book on Hera, dont remember the name off hand and I am on the road at the moment. Anyway, as I recall she was a much nicer person prior to divorcing the River Sangrius and marrying ZeusAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-5873459001301394982014-09-12T23:03:17.099-08:002014-09-12T23:03:17.099-08:00Why do you think that Aeschylus was a blaspheme? I...Why do you think that Aeschylus was a blaspheme? I'm not saying that this is not true, just wondering, because most people think he was pious. Actually, the authenticity debate of the <i>Prometheus bound</i> started exactly for that reason - pious Aeschylus was not expected to write such a play. I do not find much piety in Aeschylus, however. When his characters or (more often) Choruses praise Zeus, it sounds like, "Zeus, please exist and be good, please! We need it badly!"<br />You are right that, in terms of his position in society, pious Sophocles was the most successful of the three tragedians. I wonder, however, what about personal life. If Oedipus from <i>Oedipus at Colonus</i> is a self-portrait, I think I'd prefer to die long before my relationship with my sons deteriorates as much.<br /><br />I think you are quite right about Apollo. I like the hypothesis that he is a remaking of Hurrian plague-god Aplu. After all, Greeks took Hurrian Kumarbi as Cronus, why not also Aplu?<br />I think that an interesting deity in this respect is Hera. Myth shows her as a pissed off, vengeful goddess who has nothing better to do than look who does not respect her enough and bring him to hell, or at least make his life hell. Even when she does somebody favors, it is out if ignoble motives. (She helps the Argonauts because she is angry with Pelias.) Hera is thought to be very ancient, and her cult seems to have long preceded that of Zeus (and the Indo-European invasion). I think that Hera is an archetype of the primitive deity - an entity that has no morality, hates humans and gives them nothing except to spare them from her own rage in some cases, if properly appeased.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-19952762164002034222014-09-12T16:24:11.232-08:002014-09-12T16:24:11.232-08:00Maya,
First thanks for the book reference. Parti...Maya,<br /><br />First thanks for the book reference. Particularly since it is free. <br /><br /> I wonder if his analysis of Sophocles piety is true, that it was based on fear. Assuming that Euripides was an aetheist and Aeschylus a blaspheme, it appears piety paid off better for as a lifestyle.<br /><br />I wonder too at the worship of Apollo. His hatred of mortals and pro-Persian, pro-Trojan stance could not endear him to the Greeks. Was their piety based on fear of the plague-demon and fear of the future?<br /><br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-79599501627190480642014-09-12T12:46:07.026-08:002014-09-12T12:46:07.026-08:00I am now reading something G. Murray wrote about t...I am now reading something G. Murray wrote about the <i>Women of Trachis</i>:<br />"True he (Heracles) is a son of Zeus; that no doubt is the secret of his victoriousness, but it is no particular guarantee of moral virtue... In Sophocles as in Euripides the gods are often distinguished from human beings chiefly by their inhumanity, illustrated for example by the vindictive Athena of the Ajax or the malignant Apollo who is the source of all evils in the Oedipus... The piety of Sophocles insists mainly on the extreme danger of offending or disregarding the gods."<br />http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/murraysophocles-wifeofheracles/murraysophocles-wifeofheracles-00-h.htmlMaya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-16482184271739845962014-09-11T16:16:45.592-08:002014-09-11T16:16:45.592-08:00Maya,
Diomedes had some hard times in Italy, I th...Maya,<br /><br />Diomedes had some hard times in Italy, I think. As to the irony of the goddess of civilization on her shield...a godess has got to do whst a godess has got to do. I still cant judge the gods by mortal standards<br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-7823796685027243262014-09-10T22:05:13.872-08:002014-09-10T22:05:13.872-08:00I didn't mean the tickets for the "Blesse...I didn't mean the tickets for the "Blessed Realm" given to both heroes but their long and relatively happy lives on Earth. Compare them to Heracles who indeed obtained a high-quality immortal existence but it was preceded by a nasty, brutish, and short mortal life.<br />What do you think of Athena's attitude? In the Tydeus story, she is presented as a guardian of civilized norms. However, she carried on her <i>aegis</i> the severed head of Medusa, and the <i>aegis</i> herself was reportedly prepared from the skin of another vanquished enemy. I suspect that Athena let Tydeus die not because of his barbarity but because she saw him encroaching on Olympian privileges :-).Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-15312518528766316362014-09-10T13:51:32.922-08:002014-09-10T13:51:32.922-08:00Maya M,
Menelaus and Diomedes both had "Get ...Maya M,<br /><br />Menelaus and Diomedes both had "Get Out of Jail Free" cards. Homer explicitly promises Menelaus the Isle of the Blest because he wed Zeus' daughter. <br /><br />Diomedes inherited the promise of immortality that Athena induced the gods to rashly promise for his father, Tydeus. Tydeus was one of the Seven against Thebes. Once Zeus nodded in consent, Athena snatched up a cup of ambrosia and raced to the battle before Thebes where Tydeus would die soon. Rather than a mortally wounded hero she found a brain-eating monster. So startled and offended the goddess dropped the cup and stormed off. But the oath had been made and the immortality fell to Diomedes. I think Tydeus is the only person in Greek mythology to eat their enemy's brain, although others in moments of rage contemplate it.<br /><br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-40333701181472892482014-09-10T03:23:37.674-08:002014-09-10T03:23:37.674-08:00Menelaus actually seems to do reasonably well ever...Menelaus actually seems to do reasonably well ever since he moved from Mycenae to Sparta.<br />Also, Diomedes saves himself by moving to Italy (though it is Aphrodite's wrath in his case, rather than a family curse).Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-8076778413295835162014-09-09T18:51:38.207-08:002014-09-09T18:51:38.207-08:00Maya,
Ibteresting thought that family curses are ...Maya,<br /><br />Ibteresting thought that family curses are site specific. Life was looking pretty goog gor Oedipus as long as he stayed in Corinth. The Atresides did well in Troy, Agamemnon, not so well once home. Hmm. <br /><br />BillAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-85542657473923054882014-09-09T10:50:30.847-08:002014-09-09T10:50:30.847-08:00The renewal of the curse with the coming of age of...The renewal of the curse with the coming of age of every generation of Theban rulers makes much sense.<br />I think we need not pay much attention to the Lycus in this play. He (unlike his ancestor of the same name) seems to be an invention of Euripides to create additional suspense. His killing of Creon violates chronology too much even by the liberal standards of Greek mythology. Because in too many other stories we see the same Creon confront the Seven; and if Lycus kills him <i>after</i> the Seven's attack, this would make Heracles contemporary of the Trojan War.<br />I checked that Creon is a descendant of Pentheus. I.e. he belongs to the house of Cadmus that was object of the lethal jealousy of both Hera and Dionysus. Incidentally, Hera was protectress of Argos from where the Seven and the Epigoni went to war. Possibly the primary goal of sending madness to Heracles was elimination of his Cadmus-descended wife, children and nephews, rather than hurting him. As far as I know, Hera never targeted his children from other women.<br />I also think you are right to put emphasis on the location. Thersander son of Polyneices, who grew elsewhere, was not persecuted by the gods - quite the opposite, they installed him in place of his Theban-born and bread cousin Laodamas and gave him prosperity. Possibly ancient Greeks believed that spending some years/generations somewhere else changes heredity. Aeschylus' Epaphus, child of white Zeus and white Io, was born in Africa dark-skinned.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-53483458405165834082014-09-08T10:55:49.912-08:002014-09-08T10:55:49.912-08:00Maya,
Recent discussion at Hour 25 talked about t...Maya,<br /><br />Recent discussion at Hour 25 talked about the fact that over and over again Theban princes have something awful happen to them, possibly triggered when the next generation "comes of age", hence Laius when Oedipus comes of age, Oedipus when his sons come of age, Cadmus when Pentheus, Dionysus and Action come of age, Amphion and Zethus when Niobe's sons become all grown up. The Lycus under discussion was a grandson of Chthonius one of the sparti not descended from Laius. So apparently the curse was location rather than lineage. Mt Cithearon always has something weird going upon his slopes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-60917052778518408872014-09-08T06:13:32.372-08:002014-09-08T06:13:32.372-08:00I am now trying to find some system in Heracles...I am now trying to find some system in Heracles' madness, which is not easy. To do this, Euripides made his Heracles mistake his children for Eurystheus'. This of course required turning the story upside down by putting the 12 Labors before the madness. I wish to keep the traditional chronology.<br />I've read somewhere (possibly in Hour25) that, by forcing Heracles to kill his Theban-born children, Zeus "withdraw his seal" from Thebes. See what I've just mentioned, browsing Apollodorus' Library:<br />"Hercules received from Creon his eldest daughter Megara... But Creon gave his younger daughter to Iphicles, who already had a son Iolaus by Automedusa, daughter of Alcathus... After the battle with the Minyans Hercules was driven mad through the jealousy of Hera and flung his own children, whom he had by Megara, and two children of Iphicles into the fire..."<br />The two killed nephews were apparently from Creon's younger daughter, because Yolaus survived and later helped Heracles subdue the Hydra. So the "system in madness" seems to be Theban descent of the victims (unless it is specifically descent from the house of Creon).Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-26160787975750335352014-01-22T20:21:47.507-09:002014-01-22T20:21:47.507-09:00You are quite right that, if Prometheus hadn't...You are quite right that, if Prometheus hadn't supported Zeus, humans would not have needed his benefaction (neither would he find himself at the bottom of the food chain). His forethought must have had a day off. <br />Hesiod, unfortunately, says nothing about Prometheus' part (if any) in the Titanomachy. He just appears at Mecone out of nowhere, without a clue why he is free and allowed to do an important job. Aeschylus invents an explanation. However, it makes Prometheus a too complex personality. His behavior during the Titanomachy (as he himself describes it) shows, I would say, lack of soul. At the same time, his outburst at the end of the play proves that he has a soul (despite his unscrupulous, typically revolutionary treatment of the poor Oceanids). I have heard that some people acquire souls as adults, but I have never met one. I would simplify things by giving him a soul right from the beginning.<br />To me, the most Christian element in the play is the idea of expiation. Prometheus has done damage of cosmic proportions by helping Zeus, and must pay for it. Maybe Thetis in the Iliad is a similar case – she has helped Zeus after his tyranny had made even his closest kin rebel, and she pays for it. Of course, truly evil beings get away with doing evil, because they have no souls to save by expiaton of their sins. The only suffering of Zeus is the fear he presumably has felt while making unprotected sex to new female partners. On the other hand, given the obsession of Zeus with serial rapes, this suffering may not have been as trivial as it seems.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-87477059741838387072014-01-22T12:46:40.585-09:002014-01-22T12:46:40.585-09:00I think that, unfortunately, while cliché good guy...I think that, unfortunately, while cliché good guys are largely thought constructs, cliché bad guys are easy to find :-(. Haven't you have a boss resembling that Zeus? What about tyrants, ancient and modern (Assad, Putin, Lukashenko...)? Aeschylus seems to have known that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but is unlikely to have proposed a better solution. Unfortunately, we haven't the sequel, but I guess that the good tragic questions in the first play were just diluted in a dubious happy end, as in the Oresteia.<br />Actually, Zeus is even somewhat whitewashed in the Prometheus Bound. His worst abuses of power (the wish to protein-starve mankind at Mecone, the genocide of Silver Age humans, Pandora's box, the deluge, the swallowing of Metis, the transformation of Chiron's daughter etc.) are not even hinted at. Population control by wars is still to come, so it is not mentioned either. <br />The question why Oceanus comes is discussed here: http://www.didaskalia.net/issues/vol4no1/deforest.htmlMaya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-31572751910808958952014-01-20T12:47:33.777-09:002014-01-20T12:47:33.777-09:00Maya M,
Thanks for the comment. Part of the glor...Maya M,<br /><br />Thanks for the comment. Part of the glory and frustration of Greek Myth is that there is always another version to deal with. <br /><br />That said, what do you think of Prometheus Bound? Admittedly, it is part of a trilogy, so we aren't getting the whole thing. It just feels so theatric to me. Zeus is such a cliché bad guy. Oceanus, who never shows up at Olympus, weddings, Mecone or a war, shows up to visit Prometheus. And Prometheus is positively Christ-like when in fact this is the guy who betrayed his brothers in the Titanomachy and Zeus at Mecone. And that bit about him being the benefactor of man! If it wasn't for him we would not need a benefactor. Any way, all the characters struck me as two dimensional. Your thoughts?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11216523923707900157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9097508687199514965.post-67967654751361279292014-01-18T09:21:26.075-09:002014-01-18T09:21:26.075-09:00While in other sources Io may be already pregnant ...While in other sources Io may be already pregnant during her wanderings, I think that in the "Prometheus Bound" she is persecuted by Hera before getting pregnant. Prometheus tells her that she will conceive in the future, and she explicitly calls herself a virgin. Indeed, being still a virgin at this moment is better for the plot.Maya Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10877457709995369246noreply@blogger.com